Single Stage Press vs Arbor Press

[Demi-human]

I seem to get to hear 'can you shoot the difference?' often. To which I answer No. I then purchase the better, more quality, more expensive object anyway.
Rounds hurried though Wilson dies have the ability to be as terrible as one made on an LCT. What does your self say to you?

 

[Shynloco]

Arbor Presses just raise my confidence level in my ammunition. So does a concentricity gauge.

I agree wholeheartedly simply because the two factors/issues stated above are closely connected. In my experiences, ever since I was bitten by the "Benchrest crave for perfection and detail" in reloading, I have found that using an Arbor Press to seat my bullets gives me better and more consistent concentricity than does a Single Stage Press, regardless of make. I admit I do use Redding Dies mostly, except for when seating bullets for my BR rifles, where I use the Wilson In Line Dies. Again, it's CONSISTENCY in CONCENTRITY that gives me that raised confidence that IdahoSharpshooter makes reference to and in which I join in his thoughts.

Alex

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

absolutely.

What do you blame a flier on, once you have weighed powder charges to a kernel, gauged and weighed your bullets, and tested successfully seating depth? There is a seed warehouse here in town I have occasional access to at night. It's called a "Zero Condition Test Facility". The only variable is press concentricity. When I gauge loaded rounds I can see 1/10,000ths runout with the Mitutoyo gauge. I can gauge seating pressure to the same specs. I make a Sharpie line where I find runout. Where I find .001" runout, I line it, and orientate that round to 3,6,9, or 12 o'clock. It will throw that round out in the direction I chambered it. Maybe .050", perhaps even less, but the line on the bullet hole is consistent.

 

[JRS]

absolutely.

What do you blame a flier on, once you have weighed powder charges to a kernel, gauged and weighed your bullets, and tested successfully seating depth? There is a seed warehouse here in town I have occasional access to at night. It's called a "Zero Condition Test Facility". The only variable is press concentricity. When I gauge loaded rounds I can see 1/10,000ths runout with the Mitutoyo gauge. I can gauge seating pressure to the same specs. I make a Sharpie line where I find runout. Where I find .001" runout, I line it, and orientate that round to 3,6,9, or 12 o'clock. It will throw that round out in the direction I chambered it. Maybe .050", perhaps even less, but the line on the bullet hole is consistent.

You wouldn't blame yourself for the discrepancy, would you, Rich

 

[DeadEyeDick45]

I'm quite happy with a "tuned" drill press. I use Wilson seating dies and finish off with my drill press. When I say "tuned" I simply make sure the chuck on the press is 90° to the table. I seem to get as good or better concentricity with the drill press as I do with my Bonanza, or RCBS Rockchuker presses.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

the answer is always the target. And, the equipment lists. There is one and only one reason Bench Rest competitors use the arbor press and inline dies. And that, is because nothing else works as well. My first time at the Super Shoot, I shot a .043" target in LV Class at 100 yds. I finished with the 7th smallest target out of 60 shooters on my relay. My aggregate at 100 for five 5-shot groups was a high .1". Overall, I finished 98th out of 387 shooters.

I do load my 338 LM on my A4. I seat the bullet about halfway,rotate it 180-degrees, and finish seating it. I make a note of the runout. For awhile, I checked runout after the halfway seat. Runout was unchanged unless the bullet finish seated noticeably harder.
Better equipment will make smaller groups, once you refine your loading technique.

We all choose the level of cash expenditure on our toys we are willing to commit. It is like buying a hot rod. You have to decide how fast you can afford to go.
There is no right or wrong...

 

[Shynloco]

You wouldn't blame yourself for the discrepancy, would you, Rich

Rich,
Kindly explain what you mean by "discrepancy." That's a generalized conclusion without specifics. Fliers are caused by several variable factors including the person pulling the trigger. So are you referring to a bad/poor load, bad piece of brass, poor sight picture...what then? Thx!

Alex

 

[ballisticdaddy]

absolutely.

What do you blame a flier on, once you have weighed powder charges to a kernel, gauged and weighed your bullets, and tested successfully seating depth? There is a seed warehouse here in town I have occasional access to at night. It's called a "Zero Condition Test Facility". The only variable is press concentricity. When I gauge loaded rounds I can see 1/10,000ths runout with the Mitutoyo gauge. I can gauge seating pressure to the same specs. I make a Sharpie line where I find runout. Where I find .001" runout, I line it, and orientate that round to 3,6,9, or 12 o'clock. It will throw that round out in the direction I chambered it. Maybe .050", perhaps even less, but the line on the bullet hole is consistent.

I have three (3) questions as to your statement: 1: So even with inline dies and an arbor press you can still find .001 of runout? 2: When you do identify .001 runout you just reseat by spinning the cartridge in four locations and could you not do the same thing with Redding Comp dies? 3: When you are satisfied with concentricity are you really at .0001 runout? Not trying to be argumentative but rather trying to separate facts from opinions =)

 

[JRS]

the answer is always the target. And, the equipment lists. There is one and only one reason Bench Rest competitors use the arbor press and inline dies. And that, is because nothing else works as well. My first time at the Super Shoot, I shot a .043" target in LV Class at 100 yds. I finished with the 7th smallest target out of 60 shooters on my relay. My aggregate at 100 for five 5-shot groups was a high .1". Overall, I finished 98th out of 387 shooters.

I do load my 338 LM on my A4. I seat the bullet about halfway,rotate it 180-degrees, and finish seating it. I make a note of the runout. For awhile, I checked runout after the halfway seat. Runout was unchanged unless the bullet finish seated noticeably harder.
Better equipment will make smaller groups, once you refine your loading technique.

We all choose the level of cash expenditure on our toys we are willing to commit. It is like buying a hot rod. You have to decide how fast you can afford to go.
There is no right or wrong...

The equipment lists do not reference the press used to produce ammo. No offense, Rich, but it appears you have lost touch with reality. How many Harrell's presses are used to not only size brass, but also seat bullets? They happen to be mass produced How about the Crawford (Hood) double ram press? The RFD/JJ press, etc; etc. Those are 7/8-14 presses.

Edit: It isn't the press…. it's the dies.

 

[dkhunt14]

The equipment lists do not reference the press used to produce ammo. No offense, Rich, but it appears you have lost touch with reality. How many Harrell's presses are used to not only size brass, but also seat bullets? They happen to be mass produced How about the Crawford (Hood) double ram press? The RFD/JJ press, etc; etc. Those are 7/8-14 presses.

Edit: It isn't the press…. it's the dies.

To all the IBS Nationals I been to I have never saw many not seat without an arbor press. Now this is most the top shooters because it is a points event. I made it a point to go watch all the top shooters reload. I spent a week watching and the only ones I couldn't see were in their loading trailers and motor homes. Maybe they were ether because they used scales and a few unconventional reloading tactics, matt

 

[dkhunt14]

You wouldn't blame yourself for the discrepancy, would you, Rich

The famous gunsmith named Bruce Baer told me he could index runout on a case and tell me where the bullet was going at 1000 yards. Matt

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

I gave up BR when I got bi-focals. They used to mention the loading system, until they figured out that every competitor used an arbor press and inline dies. It's the same deal these days, they do not waste ink and paper mentioning that everybody is shooting a 6PPC.

JRS, I don't think I have lost it yet, but I am comfortable with the notion that I will not find your name on Kelbly's Super Shoot competitors list from last year. Or ever...
What form of competition do you engage in that you travel more than a day to compete at on a regular basis?

This is just and only a discussion of what level of accuracy members strive for. No need to feel insulted because of equipment level choices/preferences.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

I went to the AB Seminar this past weekend. Brian Litz said in discussing types of reloading presses, that "The Arbor Press is favored among Benchrest shooters where the ultimate in precision is demanded...".

 

[Wjesswheel]

I also have both. What I like best and produces the straightest for me is an RCBS Summit with Redding dies. If you like an arbor press and Wilson (type) dies the Summit can also be an arbor press. RCBS sells the attachments to make it so BUT with one die that is NG and a shell holder you can make your own which is what I did. However the Summit with the short handle option has the best 'feel' for seating bullets I have run across. I just don't care for the Wilson dies. No reason. The Summit gives the option of either should you have to have an arbor.
The above is strictly what I have found and what works for me.

My summit seems to do pretty well also. Both ways as a single stage or arbor.

 

[Demi-human]

the answer is always the target. And, the equipment lists. There is one and only one reason Bench Rest competitors use the arbor press and inline dies. And that, is because nothing else works as well. My first time at the Super Shoot, I shot a .043" target in LV Class at 100 yds. I finished with the 7th smallest target out of 60 shooters on my relay. My aggregate at 100 for five 5-shot groups was a high .1". Overall, I finished 98th out of 387 shooters.

I do load my 338 LM on my A4. I seat the bullet about halfway,rotate it 180-degrees, and finish seating it. I make a note of the runout. For awhile, I checked runout after the halfway seat. Runout was unchanged unless the bullet finish seated noticeably harder.
Better equipment will make smaller groups, once you refine your loading technique.

We all choose the level of cash expenditure on our toys we are willing to commit. It is like buying a hot rod. You have to decide how fast you can afford to go.
There is no right or wrong...

Yours and others experience is why I keep coming back here. I am only beginning now but hope some day to be able shoot the difference.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

you have to start somewhere. I do not claim to have the ONLY CORRECT APPROACH. Just do the simplest things first. They are often the least expensive. Buy good brass. Buy good bullets. They are the basic building blocks. Buy a hand priming tool and take the time to learn to seat primers by feel. Be consistent, and do not get in a hurry.

Good Luck in your quest for accuracy...

Rich

 

[JRS]

The famous gunsmith named Bruce Baer told me he could index runout on a case and tell me where the bullet was going at 1000 yards. Matt

OMG

 

[LHSmith]

JRS, I don't think I have lost it yet, but I am comfortable with the notion that I will not find your name on Kelbly's Super Shoot competitors list from last year. Or ever...
What form of competition do you engage in that you travel more than a day to compete at on a regular basis?

Those who can -compete......those who can't -become keyboard shooting specialists. Most competitors proudly list their real names on here. Their participation level in sanctioned shooting sport events is there for the world to see.......even if some of us seldom finish in the upper tier. One will learn 1000 times more valuable information participating in a match than one would learn only competing against himself.

 

[rkittine]

After going to the Williamsport 1,000 Yard Bench Rest School and Bob White's 100 Yard Bench Rest Clinic and Seminar, I now have three presses (Actually have progressive for high volume pistol, turret for low volume pistol and an old Rockchucker too). Foster Coaxial for my regular dies, Harrell's "C" press for case forming and an arbor press for neck sizing only and bullet seating. I started with Wilson Dies and the Arbor Press so that I could get at least three firings out of a few cases and send them off for custom full length dies.

Bob

 

[JRS]

I gave up BR when I got bi-focals. They used to mention the loading system, until they figured out that every competitor used an arbor press and inline dies. It's the same deal these days, they do not waste ink and paper mentioning that everybody is shooting a 6PPC.

JRS, I don't think I have lost it yet, but I am comfortable with the notion that I will not find your name on Kelbly's Super Shoot competitors list from last year. Or ever...
What form of competition do you engage in that you travel more than a day to compete at on a regular basis?

This is just and only a discussion of what level of accuracy members strive for. No need to feel insulted because of equipment level choices/preferences.

I have never been to the Super Shoot, and I no longer compete. The small amount of hearing I have remaining is important to me, and I intend to preserve it. Between the traveling I did during my working life, and as a single parent raising my son, there wasn't much time for me to travel to shooting competitions. I was limited to Arizona and SoCal ranges. Equipment lists remain available online. Name, cartridge, action, barrel, scope, stocker, gunsmith, bullet, powder, primer, etc. An arbor press is small and portable. They take up very little room in a range box, and don't require much real estate with the limited amount of room in the loading areas at the ranges. Many competitors use threaded dies to seat their bullets. Threaded seating dies have been proven to be just as accurate as chamber type seating dies.