CMP Response to F-class Electronic Targets Issues.

[Ed Tyler]

The CMP has posted a formal response to the problems noted with the October F-Class match held at the Talladega CMP Marksmanship Park. The response from the CMP Management has been very positive, in understanding and resolving the problems that caused the difficulties during the October 8th match. The letter states their commitment to work toward providing F-Class competitors an outstanding experience when competing at the Talladega Marksmanship Park.

The letter can be read at: http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=199979

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Thanks Ed.

 

[Damfino]

That's encouraging. Looking forward to shooting the F-class match at Talladega in March.

 

[Dos XX]

Now if they could just figure out what an F Class match is.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

That's encouraging. Looking forward to shooting the F-class match at Talladega in March.

Got a link to a schedule yet? I was not aware that they had posted a 2017 schedule for the F-Class matches.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Now if they could just figure out what an F Class match is.

I even heard that some ranges in Canada have the gall to host F-Class matches that are not NRA approved either. Can you believe that?

 

[Dos XX]

I don't care if they are sanctioned or not. They aren't an F Class match if they aren't shot on a F Class target. Surely that isn't lost on you? Maybe it is.

In fact, by what set of rules was the size of the target that was used deemed to be incorrect? I don't see anything in the rule book that dictates what size round black blobs without lines are to be used at different distances in an F Class match. The rule book does, however, provide part numbers for the correct targets to be used at different distances.

 

[BT1]

I would assume that the "CMP" range was dedicated to open sight CMP matches. Big black blobs are OK for that. But the F-Class movement has been a strong one over the past decade. If the CMP range now wants to hold f-class matches sanctioned by the NRA or not they need to use some standard target face. Not using a typical NRA f-class target will limit the number of shooters that would want to participate.

Now my pet peeve is, what in the heck were they thinking to limit a brand new range with lots or land to 600 yards. I do well at 600 yard events and like the ETs, but f-class does not really shine until you get to 1000 yards. I will not be driving that distance to shoot at 600 yards. We have 2 great ranges here in FL shooting 600 yards. You want to draw more people, build a range with 1000 yards. Sorry for the rant.

Steve

 

[Dos XX]

I will not be driving that distance to shoot at 600 yards.
Steve

Get some buddies and drive really really fast to the match and you can call it a non-sanctioned NASCAR race.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

I would assume that the "CMP" range was dedicated to open sight CMP matches. Big black blobs are OK for that. But the F-Class movement has been a strong one over the past decade. If the CMP range now wants to hold f-class matches sanctioned by the NRA or not they need to use some standard target face. Not using a typical NRA f-class target will limit the number of shooters that would want to participate.

Now my pet peeve is, what in the heck were they thinking to limit a brand new range with lots or land to 600 yards. I do well at 600 yard events and like the ETs, but f-class does not really shine until you get to 1000 yards. I will not be driving that distance to shoot at 600 yards. We have 2 great ranges here in FL shooting 600 yards. You want to draw more people, build a range with 1000 yards. Sorry for the rant.

Steve

Steve...the CMP is, and always has been, an organization for the promotion of "open sight--sling rifle" competition out to 600 yards. If you examine bulletins for the annual NRA National Rifle Match Competitions held at Camp Perry, current to past, you will see that they are compartmented into "CMP matches" and "NRA matches". The CMP matches are conducted out to 600 yards, while the NRA matches are held at 1000 yards. So, "1000-yards" is not in the CMP vocabulary.

Several years ago when the idea to open a CMP range near Taledaga (and also near Anniston Army Depot), it probably was not conceived that it might also be a mid-range F-Class rifle facility one day; obviously they did not adopt an ET system to accommodate such...there was just no intent to do so? Also, back at that time, F-Class rifle competition was just commencing to come into its own not long after the standard NRA long-range target scoring ring system was effective cut in half for F-Class competition. Populations at the CMP/NRA national matches were eroding and populations at the National F-Class Competitions were rising. There is money to be made in sponsoring F-Class competitions. Even the NRA would like to get into the quene to hold those annual competitions at Camp Perry!

It's nice to think the Taledaga CMP might spark an interest in NRA competitive F-Class by first shooting an F-Class rifle at their facility. There is an opportunity to grow the sport from that initial interest...some competitors will go on, and others will stagnate there. But, for the life of me, I cannot understand how any seasoned F-Class competitor can feel that he is honing his mid-range F-Class marksmanship skills by shooting on their "open sight" target.

Anyway, I'm aware of at least one person that got his F-Class start at the facility and has weaned himself away for the real thing.

Dan

 

[Berger.Fan222]

They built the F-Class capabilities into the electronic part of the scoring system, but not the visible target face. We've been able to select F-Class size scoring rings in the computer long before the first F-Class match was ever held.

So far, in the two years Talladega has been opened, there have only been five F-Class matches, and the preliminary schedule I saw for 2017 only listed four more. That may or may not be enough usage to justify the extra efforts to adjust the target face. Some competitors haven't needed it. Most of my buddies and I have shot our best F-Class scores ever there (both practice and in matches). The only available online scores show Brian Bowling shot a 598-35X in July. The target face didn't seem to hurt him either.

The bottom line is often supply and demand. How many NRA-approved matches are there in Alabama with the proper target faces?

Central Alabama Gun Club has four F-Class matches a year, not approved, but with the proper target faces at 300 yards. They shoot 40 shots for record and have 5 different time slots: 0900, 1015, 1130, 1245, and 1400. I greatly appreciate the availability of this match. But the 1400 time slot tends to have much different conditions from the 0900. Which would you prefer shooters shooting at vastly different times, or a non-standard target face?

I am also very pleased with the four mid-range prone matches in 2016 at Reese, and I am hoping they have at least as many at their five target facility in 2017. But the capacity here is limited, and there is definite more demand for F-Class matches than the eight matches outside of Talladega in 2016.

Ultimately match directors tend to take suggested improvements more seriously from folks who are showing up and shooting than from keyboard commandos making requests from afar which may or may not increase participation.

The F-Class matches at Talladega were increasing in attendance so quickly they can probably safely ignore suggestions from shooters who are not participating. Everyone agrees they gotta fix the electronic target failures. The expected increase in attendance from the added time, trouble, and expense of visible scoring rings is likely not worth the effort, at least in 2017 while they are working hard to accommodate growth and ensure reliability of the electronic scoring systems.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

They built the F-Class capabilities into the electronic part of the scoring system, but not the visible target face. We've been able to select F-Class size scoring rings in the computer long before the first F-Class match was ever held.

So far, in the two years Talladega has been opened, there have only been five F-Class matches, and the preliminary schedule I saw for 2017 only listed four more. That may or may not be enough usage to justify the extra efforts to adjust the target face. Some competitors haven't needed it. Most of my buddies and I have shot our best F-Class scores ever there (both practice and in matches). The only available online scores show Brian Bowling shot a 598-35X in July. The target face didn't seem to hurt him either.

The bottom line is often supply and demand. How many NRA-approved matches are there in Alabama with the proper target faces?

Central Alabama Gun Club has four F-Class matches a year, not approved, but with the proper target faces at 300 yards. They shoot 40 shots for record and have 5 different time slots: 0900, 1015, 1130, 1245, and 1400. I greatly appreciate the availability of this match. But the 1400 time slot tends to have much different conditions from the 0900. Which would you prefer shooters shooting at vastly different times, or a non-standard target face?

I am also very pleased with the four mid-range prone matches in 2016 at Reese, and I am hoping they have at least as many at their five target facility in 2017. But the capacity here is limited, and there is definite more demand for F-Class matches than the eight matches outside of Talladega in 2016.

Ultimately match directors tend to take suggested improvements more seriously from folks who are showing up and shooting than from keyboard commandos making requests from afar which may or may not increase participation.

The F-Class matches at Talladega were increasing in attendance so quickly they can probably safely ignore suggestions from shooters who are not participating. Everyone agrees they gotta fix the electronic target failures. The expected increase in attendance from the added time, trouble, and expense of visible scoring rings is likely not worth the effort, at least in 2017 while they are working hard to accommodate growth and ensure reliability of the electronic scoring systems.

Well...when Ed Tyler sought me out back in March this year to lend my name to the promotion of F-Class competition at his facility, I fully explained why I was not willing to do it with the system he had, and current NRA F-Class rules.

Dan

 

[MattPeetz]

[

I even heard that some ranges in Canada have the gall to host F-Class matches that are not NRA approved either. Can you believe that?

Shear dumbness. History check where f class started. NRA has nothing to do with canada.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

[


Shear dumbness. History check where f class started. NRA has nothing to do with canada.

That was my point. Glad you caught it.

 

[MattPeetz]

That was my point. Glad you caught it.

And the point you missed is that even though it was started in canada, the targets had scoring rings.
So, the first existence of f class had scoring rings regardless if it was canada or NRA.

The arrogance within the cmp and its match directors, AT THIS TIME, will keep it from being a nationally recognized F Class center. Once new blood gets in there, it will have a chance.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

[QUOTE="...Most of my buddies and I have shot our best F-Class scores ever there (both practice and in matches). [/QUOTE]

I kind of feel like this statement is not supporting your position. If you are shooting your highest F-Class scores ever on a system that doesn't even provide proper F-Class scoring faces... I have to wonder about the quality of the results being reported.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

And the point you missed is that even though it was started in canada, the targets had scoring rings.
So, the first existence of f class had scoring rings regardless if it was canada or NRA.

The arrogance within the cmp and its match directors, AT THIS TIME, will keep it from being a nationally recognized F Class center. Once new blood gets in there, it will have a chance.

If you had met and spoken with the match director, you wouldn't accuse him of arrogance. He is working for free and has made great strides improving the availability of F-Class in Alabama. Dunno if anyone has aspirations of national leadership with less than a dozen F-Class matches in Alabama each year.

Will the scoring ring issue need to be addressed eventually? Sure. But there are more important issues in the early stages of getting a new match up and running.

 

[Ringostar]

[QUOTE="...Most of my buddies and I have shot our best F-Class scores ever there (both practice and in matches).

I kind of feel like this statement is not supporting your position. If you are shooting your highest F-Class scores ever on a system that doesn't even provide proper F-Class scoring faces... I have to wonder about the quality of the results being reported.[/QUOTE]
It could be easy if the system is scoring you on a sling target!

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I kind of feel like this statement is not supporting your position. If you are shooting your highest F-Class scores ever on a system that doesn't even provide proper F-Class scoring faces... I have to wonder about the quality of the results being reported.

After shooting a lot of practice matches and also doing tons of load development at Talladega, accuracy is on par with paper when the system is working.

Our higher scores are mostly attributable to lack of delay in scoring, the concrete pad being a better surface for Harris bipods than the ranges we frequent, getting lucky with favorable conditions, and not relying on techniques using the scoring rings for aiming. My buddies and I do most of our shooting on steel or living targets so we are used to dialing in windage rather than holding off relative to scoring rings.

It's not that hard consistently aiming at the dead center of a big black dot without scoring rings. I suppose some F-Class shooters may not have tried it or may not have developed the skill of dialing in windage rather than holding off relative to scoring rings. It is not that hard with some practice. Sure, we catch some flack from others for turning the windage knob so much during matches, but it comes in handy when the targets don't have scoring rings.

We tend to view F-Class as practice for other long range shooting endeavors rather than an end in itself. But a surprising number of shooters in Alabama take the same approach. There were probably more F-Open shooters using Harris style bipods than anything else at most of the Talladega matches.

 

[MattPeetz]

If you had met and spoken with the match director, you wouldn't accuse him of arrogance. He is working for free and has made great strides improving the availability of F-Class in Alabama. Dunno if anyone has aspirations of national leadership with less than a dozen F-Class matches in Alabama each year.

Will the scoring ring issue need to be addressed eventually? Sure. But there are more important issues in the early stages of getting a new match up and running.

His arrogance is well out there.
He has shown it on plenty of forums. Well known and respected shooters have tried to help and give advice and to no avail except for those people to be degraded by him.
He has flat out said if you don't shoot there, you have no say so.
Good day and keep thinking your shooting the best scores you have ever shot with those targets.