Just started HbN-coating my bullets and notice significantly increased seating force is needed with HbN bullets, so much so that a distinct ring is left on the bullet by the seating die cone. When I use bare bullets, this problem goes away. Anyone experience this?
HBN increasing neck tension?
- Thread starter Scott Harris
- Start date
I would be curious to know how you are coating the bullets.
I use two plastic bottles in a vibrator with a couple thousand nickle plated BB's in each. I put 50 bullets in each bottle along with about half a medium flat blade screw driver blade of hBN.
There has been some data in the literature about poor results when using too much hBN. A common amount advised is 30gr of hBN per bottle.
I use two plastic bottles in a vibrator with a couple thousand nickle plated BB's in each. I put 50 bullets in each bottle along with about half a medium flat blade screw driver blade of hBN.
There has been some data in the literature about poor results when using too much hBN. A common amount advised is 30gr of hBN per bottle.
I use about 6gr per 100 bullets....there is always excess HbN so I assume that is plenty. Tumble them for several hours w/ Thumler in a jar with steel BBs. I wipe all the excess off. Thanks for the feedback.
It's interesting that the bullets feel very slippery, yet the resistance to seating is much higher....as if I were using a bushing .002 smaller. As mentioned, the resistance is so high that a distinct ring is left on the bullets from the seating die cone. At first, I thought the brand of bullet was to blame because I tried another brand and the problem disappeared. Of course the other brand was not coated. Then I tried an uncoated version of the original brand of bullets and it took much less seating force. Weird.
It's interesting that the bullets feel very slippery, yet the resistance to seating is much higher....as if I were using a bushing .002 smaller. As mentioned, the resistance is so high that a distinct ring is left on the bullets from the seating die cone. At first, I thought the brand of bullet was to blame because I tried another brand and the problem disappeared. Of course the other brand was not coated. Then I tried an uncoated version of the original brand of bullets and it took much less seating force. Weird.
Interesting, it is Hornady bullets that I am having problems with also. Wonder why HbN would be an issue?
i personaly dont use hbn cause its just another variable in an already complicated equation...just my 2cents
Conrad
Silver $$ Contributor
I have observed the same. How are you cleaning your brass, and did you try pulling those bullets that seated hard? I'm finding bullets that are hBN coated seat rougher even if the pressure is small, but pull so much harder and vertical striations are left on the bearing surface. In comparison bare bullets seat and pull like butter and no striations. I am expanding with a Sinclair expander mandrel, and I've seen this on various brands of bullets and brass, new and fired. I can elaborate further with more comparisons and degrees of varying neck tension, etc. but let's start there.
Damn, I just had the same thing occur seating HBn coated 115 DTacs in my 240NMC. I coated them myself. They went into Win cases that were cleaned with soap & water and annealed. Using the same case setup, uncoated bullets loaded w/o undue seating pressure.
On the other hand I have shot close to 1000 Berger 105VLD's that were HBn coated and they all seated easily. Something strange is going on here!!!
On the other hand I have shot close to 1000 Berger 105VLD's that were HBn coated and they all seated easily. Something strange is going on here!!!
Conrad
Silver $$ Contributor
My situation arose the other week when I set out to load some accubonds in my .270 win hunting rifle. I had decided to change from Bergers. Anyway, the bullets seated extremely hard, leaving a seating stem mark. There were a couple bullets I ended up pulling, and I could not believe how hard it was to pull them, or how many hard wacks it took with my kinetic puller. I decided to buy some new Norma brass. That brass came in, and no joy testing it recently. I've shot with hBN for years now too. I started cleaning with STM and noticed harder seating, and read of accounts of this so blamed it on my cleaning methods for the most part here until recently. I'm also trying out some different Hornday A-max loads in my AR and those were seating kinda hard to the point I bedded my seating stem. Problem solved on bullet deformation. Cool trick. But they are still hard to pull. My 6xc match loads seat pretty nice, but you can still feel the rougher seat (have never really paid much attention to it, til now), and upon pulling all of these bullets the vertical striatations cut into the bullet were evident. This all came to a head tonight when loading bare bullets for a friends .300 WSM and noticing that they seated like butter, and pulled like butter, with no striations/grooving. This lead me to do multiple informal tests.
My coated 200 AB's for another rifle seated rough in his .300 WSM brass that I cleaned with STM. This is the same brass that left absolutely no marks on the bare NAB bullets. All brass trimmed and chamfered with a Giraud. The only bullets I don't coat are my 115 DTACs from SSS, so I used these as a control figuring they were coated better than myself. Never really had a problem seating them, but you can feel the roughness in comparison to bare bullets. I've read hBN is really best as a lubricant when used against itself. I burnish all of my bores with a alcohol and hBN solution for this reason. Anyway, the DTACs show striations as well. My .223 stuff shows grooving too, and I've got some 80 smk's and a-maxes that I know coated very nicely (dull and slick). I had some left over molied Bergers that I tested in my new Norma .270 brass, smooth in, smooth out, no grooves. I burnished a neck with hBN thinking hBN on hBN might help....it did not. I then took a bare bullet and seated it into this brass that had been burnished with hBN, and it was tough to pull and came out with the grooves. I took an fired 6xc case, wiped the outside, sized, and expanded it, and seated a bullet. Very nice, and it was obvious the carbon protected the bullet upon pulling it. Barely noticeable striations, but not grooved. I then did the same test but this time brushed the neck with a nylon brush to mimic some cleaning such as just corn cob. Pretty good, but some slight grooving upon pulling it.
I've been shooting hBN for a number of years now. I have 6xc loads that shoot good, but I never knew how much more extra grip the bullets were getting, really more so in some of my other cartridges. Last week's findings made me think I needed to start annealing, which I'm not opposed to because I'm on a kick of restoring brass to like new and keeping tension consistent, but as one can see there are a lot of variables at play here. My .270 win load development was poor, and now maybe I know why! I love the infrequent cleaning I do on my barrels, but the grip on some of these bullets is unreal. Lately I have been coating with just different caliber bullets cleaned in rubbing alcohol, that have been preheated before tumbling 1.5+ hours. My old method I would clean, and tumble with BB's for 4 hours. The only bullets that had very subtle grooving were some 175 SMK's that I've had a long time and were tested in my friend's 300 wsm cases. They seated and pulled pretty nicely.
These are my informal observations of late. My only theory right now is that longer tumbling with a media like BB's might be necessary to help lay down those hard angular particles of hBN down nice and flat and smooth. That, and don't get the necks perfectly clean. Not sure how to handle new brass, or if the first mentioned theory will mitigate the problem on new brass all together. I apologize if this post is a bit disorganized.
-Conrad
My coated 200 AB's for another rifle seated rough in his .300 WSM brass that I cleaned with STM. This is the same brass that left absolutely no marks on the bare NAB bullets. All brass trimmed and chamfered with a Giraud. The only bullets I don't coat are my 115 DTACs from SSS, so I used these as a control figuring they were coated better than myself. Never really had a problem seating them, but you can feel the roughness in comparison to bare bullets. I've read hBN is really best as a lubricant when used against itself. I burnish all of my bores with a alcohol and hBN solution for this reason. Anyway, the DTACs show striations as well. My .223 stuff shows grooving too, and I've got some 80 smk's and a-maxes that I know coated very nicely (dull and slick). I had some left over molied Bergers that I tested in my new Norma .270 brass, smooth in, smooth out, no grooves. I burnished a neck with hBN thinking hBN on hBN might help....it did not. I then took a bare bullet and seated it into this brass that had been burnished with hBN, and it was tough to pull and came out with the grooves. I took an fired 6xc case, wiped the outside, sized, and expanded it, and seated a bullet. Very nice, and it was obvious the carbon protected the bullet upon pulling it. Barely noticeable striations, but not grooved. I then did the same test but this time brushed the neck with a nylon brush to mimic some cleaning such as just corn cob. Pretty good, but some slight grooving upon pulling it.
I've been shooting hBN for a number of years now. I have 6xc loads that shoot good, but I never knew how much more extra grip the bullets were getting, really more so in some of my other cartridges. Last week's findings made me think I needed to start annealing, which I'm not opposed to because I'm on a kick of restoring brass to like new and keeping tension consistent, but as one can see there are a lot of variables at play here. My .270 win load development was poor, and now maybe I know why! I love the infrequent cleaning I do on my barrels, but the grip on some of these bullets is unreal. Lately I have been coating with just different caliber bullets cleaned in rubbing alcohol, that have been preheated before tumbling 1.5+ hours. My old method I would clean, and tumble with BB's for 4 hours. The only bullets that had very subtle grooving were some 175 SMK's that I've had a long time and were tested in my friend's 300 wsm cases. They seated and pulled pretty nicely.
These are my informal observations of late. My only theory right now is that longer tumbling with a media like BB's might be necessary to help lay down those hard angular particles of hBN down nice and flat and smooth. That, and don't get the necks perfectly clean. Not sure how to handle new brass, or if the first mentioned theory will mitigate the problem on new brass all together. I apologize if this post is a bit disorganized.
-Conrad
Conrad
thanks for that.
The rest of you having neck tension issues... are you using a form of brass cleaning that removes all the carbon from the interior of your necks as well?
I was thiking of trying this for the long range rifle but Im a firm believer that Consistant Neck tension is one of or THE most important part of 1000 yard loads. This issue would be bad for that aspect alone.
Intresting thread.
Russ
thanks for that.
The rest of you having neck tension issues... are you using a form of brass cleaning that removes all the carbon from the interior of your necks as well?
I was thiking of trying this for the long range rifle but Im a firm believer that Consistant Neck tension is one of or THE most important part of 1000 yard loads. This issue would be bad for that aspect alone.
Intresting thread.
Russ
The coated bullets will be slightly larger in diameter than the uncoated bullets. Maybe this is the difference. I have used HBN now for 3 yrs. and have not noticed a problem but there again I anneal after each firing. My cleaning process is as follows: decap-clean with STM-dry-anneal-size-run brass through walnut media that has been impregnated with car polish to remove case lube-trim-prime-dump powder-seat bullet. So far so good.
As I stated earlier, I'm having insertion trouble with my 240 and none with my 6BRX. the only difference is the brass brand. Win. vs Lapua. After reading Conrad's reply I pulled bullets from each. The 6BRX's pulled normally, 240 did not and the 240's were striated. The brass and bulets for both rounds are processed the same.
Conrad
Silver $$ Contributor
ar15topgun said:
I'm curious if your walnut media and car polish help for a smoother transition. I was theorizing about this last night, and will probably see if it makes a difference today. My process is very similar to yours except I do a quick corn cob to clean up for the sizing die. Size and decap, then STM which gets the sizing wax off as well. Trim, prime, powder, seat bullet. I do not anneal yet, but have a Giraud annealer on the way as one more step to try and get things very consistent.
How long do you run your STM?
How llong do you tumble your bullets in hBN? Do you use any tumbling media with them? Sometimes I have some streaking, but it wipes off, and overall my bullets are dull and slick.
Thanks,
Conrad
Conrad
Silver $$ Contributor
Upon a little more testing, I can say that my new Norma 270 brass seats much easier and pulls easier than this left over batch of new winchester stuff a friend gave me....
It's still a bit hard to pull, but nothing like the winchester. Regardless of all the variables going on, I think it's interesting that BN coated bullets pull harder than bare bullets, even if they seat with minimum force.
It's still a bit hard to pull, but nothing like the winchester. Regardless of all the variables going on, I think it's interesting that BN coated bullets pull harder than bare bullets, even if they seat with minimum force.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.