Is it possible to anneal too often?

[infantrytrophy]

Can annealing too often harm brass cases?

I recently acquired an annealing machine (Bench Source), so one batch of my brass is out of sync with the rest, in terms of when it was annealed. Should I go ahead and anneal the brass that is "behind" by one annealing cycle so that all of it will be "freshly" annealed for a 3-day match next week?

In other words, one large batch has been fired once (6RAT, fireformed using the false shoulder technique) and annealed.

A second batch was fireformed after the first firing, annealed, then fired again.

Should I go ahead and anneal the second batch so that all of it is freshly annealed for the multi-day match? Is there any harm to the cases by annealing again, even though it has been fired only once since it was annealed?

 

[bozo699]

Can annealing too often harm brass cases?

I recently acquired an annealing machine (Bench Source), so one batch of my brass is out of sync with the rest, in terms of when it was annealed. Should I go ahead and anneal the brass that is "behind" by one annealing cycle so that all of it will be "freshly" annealed for a 3-day match next week?

In other words, one large batch has been fired once (6RAT, fireformed using the false shoulder technique) and annealed.

A second batch was fireformed after the first firing, annealed, then fired again.

Should I go ahead and anneal the second batch so that all of it is freshly annealed for the multi-day match? Is there any harm to the cases by annealing again, even though it has been fired only once since it was annealed?

FWIW I anneal after every firing with no issues.
Wayne.

 

[Leaddog]

I also use a Benchsource. Clean your brass and then anneal everytime before resize. You'll like your on target results.

 

[jbpmidas]

I don't anneal, yet. But, in my experience, I want all of my brass to be the same! I want them on the same number of loadings, and if I annealed, I would want them all annealed together. That said, for a BIG match, I would anneal anyway. The match is worth the brass!

 

[Rtheurer]

I.T.

Across the course? if so not much to worry about but anealing it isnt going mess anything up. If there is doubt in your head that is worth a point or so. I dont think your going to notice anything this early in your brass's life as its almost new yet. Shoot them at the short line if your worried about it.

Good luck in your match.
Russ T

 

[johara1]

I anneal every time, i don't clean first because you have to clean after you anneal.......jim

 

[jlow]

Guess I have heard that you can over anneal and the brass gets too soft. Not sure though if the comment was based on fact or fiction. An expert on metallurgy commenting on this would be nice and useful.

 

[Bradley Walker]

I don't anneal, yet. But, in my experience, I want all of my brass to be the same!

Sooooooo... How do you know that annealing makes your brass "the same"?

You could be making them worse...

I'm sorry this whole annealing every time sounds like wichcraft... If you want to reduce your seating pressure use a larger bushing or turn the necks. Seating force is directly proportional to the thickness of the neck and the deflection (the largest factors by far).... The TINY bit of softening that is afforded by annealing, I'm sorry I just don't think there is any data whatsoever to show that there is an effect.... Especially with the very tiny amount most people are sizing with match chambers and dies.

 

[4xforfun]

Guess I have heard that you can over anneal and the brass gets too soft. Not sure though if the comment was based on fact or fiction. An expert on metallurgy commenting on this would be nice and useful.

The way I understand it...lets say you heat the case to 700 degrees for three seconds. Lets give that value X. If you turned around and did it again, not shoot them, just re annealed them...700 for three seconds.....the value would still be X...not X + X. The brass would not have been softened or annealed any more, unless you increase the time or the temp, or both.

For me it's going to be anneal every time!!

If you are more informed than this third grader, please chime in. I just purchesed my Bench Sorce and very much enjoy using it!!

 

[bozo699]

Guess I have heard that you can over anneal and the brass gets too soft. Not sure though if the comment was based on fact or fiction. An expert on metallurgy commenting on this would be nice and useful.

The way I understand it...lets say you heat the case to 700 degrees for three seconds. Lets give that value X. If you turned around and did it again, not shoot them, just re annealed them...700 for three seconds.....the value would still be X...not X + X. The brass would not have been softened or annealed any more, unless you increase the time or the temp, or both.

If you have a hard time understanding what I just wrote, just ask a 3rd grader...(that's about where I put myself) and he can explain it to you. ;D

For me it's going to be anneal every time!!

Well put, in terms even I can understand ;D

Bradley,
I am not trying to sell this on you but I know for a fact that by annealing and using a K&M arbor press w/force seat measurement I can for SURE see the difference in consistent seating pressures and more uniform seating depths at least this has been my observation.
Wayne.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Guess I have heard that you can over anneal and the brass gets too soft. Not sure though if the comment was based on fact or fiction. An expert on metallurgy commenting on this would be nice and useful.

The way I understand it...lets say you heat the case to 700 degrees for three seconds. Lets give that value X. If you turned around and did it again, not shoot them, just re annealed them...700 for three seconds.....the value would still be X...not X + X. The brass would not have been softened or annealed any more, unless you increase the time or the temp, or both.

If you have a hard time understanding what I just wrote, just ask a 3rd grader...(that's about where I put myself) and he can explain it to you. ;D

For me it's going to be anneal every time!!

Well put, in terms even I can understand ;D

Bradley,
I am not trying to sell this on you but I know for a fact that by annealing and using a K&M arbor press w/force seat measurement I can for SURE see the difference in consistent seating pressures and more uniform seating depths at least this has been my observation.
Wayne.

What is your neck thickness and sized to finished diameter?

 

[bozo699]

Guess I have heard that you can over anneal and the brass gets too soft. Not sure though if the comment was based on fact or fiction. An expert on metallurgy commenting on this would be nice and useful.

The way I understand it...lets say you heat the case to 700 degrees for three seconds. Lets give that value X. If you turned around and did it again, not shoot them, just re annealed them...700 for three seconds.....the value would still be X...not X + X. The brass would not have been softened or annealed any more, unless you increase the time or the temp, or both.

If you have a hard time understanding what I just wrote, just ask a 3rd grader...(that's about where I put myself) and he can explain it to you. ;D

For me it's going to be anneal every time!!

Well put, in terms even I can understand ;D

Bradley,
I am not trying to sell this on you but I know for a fact that by annealing and using a K&M arbor press w/force seat measurement I can for SURE see the difference in consistent seating pressures and more uniform seating depths at least this has been my observation.
Wayne.

What is your neck thickness and sized to finished diameter?

On which rifle? I have over 300 of them. On my latest one I have a 6BRX I am turning the necks to .0115, loaded round .266 in a .269 chamber, I use a .265 bushing in my sizing die, is that what you were asking?
Wayne.

 

[Shynloco]

I also use a Benchsource. Clean your brass and then anneal everytime before resize. You'll like your on target results.

Hi Charlie,
Just out of curiosity, how many reloads are you getting out of your Lapua brass since you anneal after every shooting? I've read that 10 loads are about it before the serious competitors dump even their Lapua.

Alex

 

[FroggyOne2]

Infantry: I believe you are thinking of over annealing in the wrong context! Yes you can over anneal brass and ruin it, by heating it for too long a time, but if you anneal it many times for the same time period at the same temp, no you will not ruin it!

 

[Leaddog]

I also use a Benchsource. Clean your brass and then anneal everytime before resize. You'll like your on target results.

Hi Charlie,
Just out of curiosity, how many reloads are you getting out of your Lapua brass since you anneal after every shooting? I've read that 10 loads are about it before the serious competitors dump even their Lapua.

Alex

Alex- I don't anneal for brass longevity, but for consistent neck tension. I shoot my brass twice before I feel it is competition worthy (.308) and then 5 more times as match brass. After that, the primer pockets are starting to loosen some and I use the brass for just practice. It still shoots good and I take it to about 10-12 and say goodbye. Never had any split necks or other brass problems. I also don't hammer my rifle with the hottest loads I can shoot.

I'd say you could go a long time on your brass by annealing each time. Much more than the 10 or 12 if you aren't using it for match brass.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Guess I have heard that you can over anneal and the brass gets too soft. Not sure though if the comment was based on fact or fiction. An expert on metallurgy commenting on this would be nice and useful.

The way I understand it...lets say you heat the case to 700 degrees for three seconds. Lets give that value X. If you turned around and did it again, not shoot them, just re annealed them...700 for three seconds.....the value would still be X...not X + X. The brass would not have been softened or annealed any more, unless you increase the time or the temp, or both.

If you have a hard time understanding what I just wrote, just ask a 3rd grader...(that's about where I put myself) and he can explain it to you. ;D

For me it's going to be anneal every time!!

Well put, in terms even I can understand ;D

Bradley,
I am not trying to sell this on you but I know for a fact that by annealing and using a K&M arbor press w/force seat measurement I can for SURE see the difference in consistent seating pressures and more uniform seating depths at least this has been my observation.
Wayne.

What is your neck thickness and sized to finished diameter?

On which rifle? I have over 300 of them. On my latest one I have a 6BRX I am turning the necks to .0115, loaded round .266 in a .269 chamber, I use a .265 bushing in my sizing die, is that what you were asking?
Wayne.

Yes. Listen I am certainly no expert on annealing or even shooting (at least compared to some of the amazing shooters I meet, but I do have quite a bit of training in process trouble shooting in manufacturing and I just get the impression that there is as good a statistical argument for inducing variation as there is for eliminating variation with annealing. As far as seating consistency I have my own ideas on why low seating pressure improves seating depth measurements and reducing the interference and making the neck thinner both reduce that without annealing.

To me it's a process thing. That's all. Annealing is another variable. Not to say it doesn't reduce seating pressure.

There is a very good video on YouTube with a world class br shooter and they discuss reducing the neck wall thickness.

There is also a very good article from PS magazine talking about a guy that shot groups in an indoor warehouse for a decade. Shooting tens of thousands of groups. He reduced his neck tension to the point he could seat bullets with the Wilson seated using his hand. He reamed the inside and turned outside and once the cases were prepped they never really varied after that.

Again, I'm no expert. Just discussing what I've seen.

 

[Bradley Walker]

It would seem to me bullet seating "pull" might he less important the more the bullet is jammed also.... But I have no idea if this is true... Or false for that matter!!!

 

[SpencerC]

The process of annealing is to soften the necks after they work harden (size, fire, size, fire etc..) so they do not split early or have increasingly more neck tension with every fire/re-size. It is not witch craft, it's metallurgy. Annealing was not developed in the shooting world, just brought into it.

 

[4xforfun]

Guess I have heard that you can over anneal and the brass gets too soft. Not sure though if the comment was based on fact or fiction. An expert on metallurgy commenting on this would be nice and useful.

The way I understand it...lets say you heat the case to 700 degrees for three seconds. Lets give that value X. If you turned around and did it again, not shoot them, just re annealed them...700 for three seconds.....the value would still be X...not X + X. The brass would not have been softened or annealed any more, unless you increase the time or the temp, or both.

If you have a hard time understanding what I just wrote, just ask a 3rd grader...(that's about where I put myself) and he can explain it to you. ;D

For me it's going to be anneal every time!!

If you are more informed than this third grader, please chime in. I just purchesed my Bench Sorce and very much enjoy using it!!

I guess I don’t understand the need to be condescending in a technical board? It impedes discussion which is not what we should encourage…. I am sure the moderator will remind you of this. :

However, your description is what I understand is the effect of annealing which is there is a baseline hardness that the work hardened brass returns to when it is annealed. FWIW, I also anneal after every time I shoot my brass and so I am also not trying to debunk your (and my own) technique.

I ask the question because I have seen answers which suggest that one can over anneal and since I am not a metallurgist, it is always useful to ask for an expert opinion.

There is of course also more than seating force that is affected when one anneals, for example, the amount of spring back at the shoulders is also more consistent.

jlow,
I think you have read way more into this then 4Xforfun meant it to be, he was talking about his self, adding a little humor I don't think he was being condescending at all and I don't know why a moderator would be needed at all for that, just thinking about tattle tailing on someone for such pettiness makes me feel like I am in the third grade! that;s all!!
Wayne.

jlow.....the third grader comment was PURLEY aimed at myself. I in no way was refering to anyone else. I am big in to self-depradating humer (if you can call it that). I just don't, or didn't, have the vocabulary to explain it like an ADULT!!

I am sorry if you took it the wrong way. Please accept my apology!!

Tod Soeby

Now, as far as over annealing brass.....I don't think it has anything to do with the NUMBER of times annealed, if done properly....It has to do with how hot , and for how long, you get them. I have no idea what that temp is, or for how long, but my guess is that you can "over anneal" by simply getting them to hot for to long.

Wayne,

I just re read your post...SERIOUSLY...300 guns!!! I think you need to adopt someone to help you shoot and clean all of those guns.......I know of a guy (kid)...he's a third grader...and........

 

[Nomad47]

I also use a Benchsource. Clean your brass and then anneal everytime before resize. You'll like your on target results.

Hi Charlie,
Just out of curiosity, how many reloads are you getting out of your Lapua brass since you anneal after every shooting? I've read that 10 loads are about it before the serious competitors dump even their Lapua.

Alex

Unfortunately I suffer from CRS, so I can't quote. But I recall a shooter by the name of Tom Sarver set some sort of 1000 yard record on the 54th loading of his brass. I'm betting the brass was annealed a LOT.