6CM Banned from Mineral Wells

[joesr]

I received a call from my customer telling me that the 6CM was banned from Mineral Wells.

I was only working with the information I had.

I apologize for the facts regarding this being incorrect.

I did not post this to boots sales...only to brag.

Please understand a few things:

1. I am not a gun builder, only the designer of a cartridge.

2. The cartridge I designed has out performed my expectations and, as far as I know, every customer I've serviced is happy with my product.

3. I make about $50.00 on every 6CM chambered,graciously give to me by the smith doing the work as I'm bring him the business. All work is at his normal costs) and I provide more personal support for my customers than all other people that supply a similar product,with the possible exception of Robert Whitley). I am in contact with every customer well after the product is delivered offering advice on loading, shooting and other.

4. I did not enter into this to make money, only to prove a point. That point is that a 6mm cartridge can have a barrel life well beyond 2500 rounds and shoot less than 1/2 MOA for the duration. That point has been pr oven as no one has shot out a barrel to date and some of the barrels have over 3500 rounds.

5. Initially I thought I might turn this into a side business and possibly I could have. But this is not what I do and to do it properly it would take more time than I have.

6. In my opinion the 6CM is a great cartridge and I am very proud of how it has been received by the majority of the shooting community. Furthermore, I'm very happy that people are now understanding the difference slow burning, single based powders make in extend barrel life. Before, I started hammering these boards this concept may have been communicated, but after the concept has been accepted. Not because of what my claims, exclusively, but because of my claims supported by the other shooters who already understood the formula.


Simply, I had an idea, it proved out to be better than I had expected, it does and can affect many peoples quality of life and I'm very proud of what I have come up with.

Possibly, it is a personality flaw in that I brag as much as I do and in the bragging try to get other people to try my idea, that I know works.

I'd like to apologize for these efforts, but many shooters have benefited from them and for those guys, no apology is necessary.

I like being some what controversial and in the process getting people to think.

So burn me if you want to but my intentions are all about getting people to shoot the best they can and extend they dollars,regarding barrel life) in the process.

Joe Hendricks

PS...the facts are the facts and out of my cartridge...115 DTAC, 3100 fps with 4000 rounds of barrel life!

I am proud of that!

 

[Shady_Jay]

I guess what I meant was there are bench rest rifles out there but you shoot from the prone.

In other words, F-Class open.

How are the tactical rifles shot? With a bipod and scope?

ok, I admit my ignorance about the exact break down of classes and so forth. I just show up and say I shoot tactical and then I am squaded. So, learning experience, and I will commit them to memory.

So, before I tell you the qualification of tact class, I will research the full rules and get back to you. But I shoot with a scope off a bipod in .308.

My previous posts were just in reference to what I observed. If there is reference to me trying to sell some new round, well I apologize. I am nobody here, not a benchrest shooter, and I am not affiliated with any gunsmith or company. I'm just an Insurance Fraud Investigator with a factory Rem 700P in an AICS. Not a con-man.

In fact, all my post did was probably piss off Stockholder who I have a tremendous respect for. Sorry, Shawn. But, I never confirmed that round was banned. I just confirmed that the shooter with that round kicked my ass.

I never posted here before and just read the info and learned from it. So, if I get flamed in this thread, well.... I'll get flamed. I'll stick to what I know, learn all I can and go from there. But I will still be here reading....not so much posting

So, guys, come out and shoot with us! I am doing what I can to get more friends out there for more competitors.

Josh Ruby

 

[Shady_Jay]

I just re-reviewed this and joesr posted at the same time and it may look staged.......

just show up and all you will see is me shooting a .308 always.

I'm back to lurking and not being "That Guy"

 

[memilanuk]

Joe,

I realize at some point you have to trust people to tell you the truth, the *whole* truth, and nothing but the... well, you get hte idea

Hindsight being 20/20 and all that... it might have been more prudent to contact the match director in question to find out what the skinny was before pasting it all over the Internet. We have some local matches where someone shooting a 6cm, a 6XC, a .260, whatever, would clean up against most people w/ a .308 or .223. Which is why they get stuck in the Open class. Which is when they commence pissing and moaning that the guns they built to beat the .308's are getting drubbed by the 6.5-284,or whatever) guns built specifically for Open class. And so it goes... Every twice in a while an individual comes along who just cleans up w/ whatever you put in their hands... sounds like your shooter/customer may be one of those. Not to take anything away from the 6CM, but those people are out there.

Still looking forward to trying one of those 6CM's... when are you going to start selling reamers?

Monte

 

[joesr]

I posted at the same time as what?

What is staged?

You got me...I'm some evil person that plans and schemes to get one more person over to the dark side of the 6CM.

Probably you and I were typing our posts at the same time, but more probably I timed my post to be inserted at the exact same time as your post as I was targeting you.

The 6CM information has been on Ammoguide.com for some time and if someone wants to make a reamer for themselves it is there and has been.

Honestly, I'm tired of the the accusations and attacks.

The only reason I keep this to myself is that every time I loan out a reamer or sell a reamer there are issues with gunsmithing or "experimentation's". Every...single...barrel I have had chambered for another shooter has worked. Not only because of the great gunsmithing by David Bruno, but also because these shooters work with the guidelines I've established.

The trick is not the cartridge, but how you shoot it.

Have a good day,

Joe

 

[joesr]

Joe,

I realize at some point you have to trust people to tell you the truth, the *whole* truth, and nothing but the... well, you get hte idea

Hindsight being 20/20 and all that... it might have been more prudent to contact the match director in question to find out what the skinny was before pasting it all over the Internet. We have some local matches where someone shooting a 6cm, a 6XC, a .260, whatever, would clean up against most people w/ a .308 or .223. Which is why they get stuck in the Open class. Which is when they commence pissing and moaning that the guns they built to beat the .308's are getting drubbed by the 6.5-284,or whatever) guns built specifically for Open class. And so it goes... Every twice in a while an individual comes along who just cleans up w/ whatever you put in their hands... sounds like your shooter/customer may be one of those. Not to take anything away from the 6CM, but those people are out there.

Still looking forward to trying one of those 6CM's... when are you going to start selling reamers?

Monte

Monte,

I'll sell you a reamer. I have one in stock.

But the cartridge is not the key. I keep saying this and NO ONE LISTENS! It is the loading and barrel care that makes the difference. That is why I've held on to the reamer/cartridge so long. I was trying to prove a point and it has been proven.

Accuracy as good as any 6mm and barrel life the same as a 308.

The problem is that buying a reamer and then doing "your own thing" in regards to loading and barrel care will result in the "expected" or "perceived" performance from a 243 Win.

The 6CM will give you slightly more velocity than the 243, but that is not important. The increase in velocity for this cartridge is only due to the improvement made to increase accuracy in the shoulder angle.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much difference that accutaly made, but in my experiences it did make a difference.

However, it is important to note that you cannot compare the 6CM to the 6XC, 6mm-22-250 or similar sized cartridges, as the formula for success will not work for these "undersized" cartridges.

Regardless of the cartridge form, the cartridge has to be large enough to work with H1000 or similar powders. ,Very slow and single based) If this requirement is not met barrel life will suffer, and H4350 is not in the ball park of what works.

There has been much talk about smaller 6mm that are similar in size to the 6XC and all of these cartridges, while accurate, still suffer from not enough case capacity to yield the best barrel life.

UNDERSTAND THAT SMALLER CASE CAPACITY DOES NOT EQUAL LONGER BARREL LIFE.

You have to match the capacity to the powder and bullet to obtain the best barrel life and accuracy.

This is what I've done.

Joe Hendricks

 

[LESLEY]

i am the one who called joe and started this. i have been shooting these matches for a long time. I started out shooting a 6br. There have been others shooting 243 and 260 i have allways told the match directer and everyone else what i was shooting.i never tryed to hide anything i started shooting a 6cm when i was testing 1 a friend got in. i like it so much i kept shooting it. This last Febuary was when i was told i could only shoot a 223 308 or 30/06 I can back this up very easly. SO i call the gun smith that builds joes guns i had him build me a 308 since that is what i had to shoot there . The first match there with it i shot a 596 with 30x out of a 600 and as far as i know and have been told that is the best score to date. And that was a bad day for me 198x9 199x10 199x11 it was only at 300yds 3 inch 10 ring 1 1/2 x ring. So if yall want to flame someone or hammer someone it would be me and if you live in north Texas and shoot at fort wolters then you all ready know me

 

[memilanuk]

Lesley,

Did the match director tell you that you couldn't shoot the 6CM at *ALL*, or that you couldn't shoot it in the Tactical class. The first amounts to it being 'banned', the second is a whole different ball of wax. I think that's where this whole stink came about. I don't shoot down there, and likely never will,kinda a fur drive from Washington state), so I don't care *that* much. But this whole thing is devolving into a 'he said this/he said that' thing... with Joe,and the rest of us) wondering WTF the situation really is/was.

Monte

 

[LESLEY]

I was told i could not shoot it in tact. You can only shoot a 223, 308 or 30/06 in tact. now

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

The original title of this thread is "6CM Banned from Mineral Wells". I'd say that it's a bit inflammatory! At this point it's obvious that this thread should have been titled something like "6CM required to compete in its correct class at Mineral Wells".

As to whether this confusion is a result of a mis-communication between the originator of this cartridge,the OP) and the shooter or it's a result of puffery by the OP is what the readers of this thread will ultimately have to figure out on their own

 

[JeffT]

where did this 6cm finish in the Feb. mid-range match, when it was put into the proper class??

 

[Stockholder]

The match bulletin for the Ft. Wolters Mid Range Championship on February 17-18, 2007 can be found at the Long-Range.com website forum under Coming Events. Topic title is Ft. Wolters Mid Range F-class Tournament. See post #1 dated November 23, 2006 at 9:56 pm. Two days of shooting. Day 1 300-500-600 yards, Day 2 3-600's.

Scores for the above described match can be found at the Long-Range.com website forum under Match Results. Topic Title is Ft. Wolters Mid Range Championship, post #4 dated February 21, 2007, 8:59 am.

24 F-class open shooters, 19 of which shot both days while 5 shot only 1 day

15 F-TR shooters, 14 of which shot 2 days, 1 shot only 1 day

There was no ban on the 6cm at this Ft. Wolters match either.

 

[memilanuk]

Stockholder,

Lemme guess... there were some slight changes from your earlier... 'local' format to the new NRA rules that went into effect at the beginning of the year. Such as 'TR' now only allowed certain calibers/configurations... and the high-speed/low-drag calibers like .260 Rem, .243 Win, 6XC, 6CM, 6.5-284 and whatnot had to go play in the deep end in Open class.



Sheesh. How the heck did that mutate into 'banned'?!?

Monte

 

[Stockholder]

Milanuk

The 6cm has never been in the tactical rifle class at the Stockholder match since I created it in February 2006. In 2006 the only calibers allowed in the tactical rifle class were .223 and .308. In 2007 I added the .30-06 to allow the 03-A4 Springfield, the M1-C and M1-D Garand and the M-21. The model 70 and 700 in .30-06 were also allowed since they were used in the Vietnam war. I didn't see that these old military rifles put the modern tactical rifle at any disadvantage.

The 6cm has always been in the match rifle class or the F-class. At the Stockholder I don't differentiate between F-open and F-TR unless there are enough shooters to make two different classes. The difference in F-TR and Tactical at the Stockholder is a tactical rifle has a magazine. The Stockholder is only shot at 300 or 500 yards. I use the MR-C 500 yard target because seldom does a hard core F-class shooter show up although they are quite welcome. The Stockholder is a fun relaxed match.

The basic difference between the Stockholder matches and the February 17-18, 2007, F-class championship was,1)the size of the target rings were smaller,,2)you had to compete in either F-open or F-TR in the championship and,3)I believe each shooter had a score keeper in the championship. You will note that on the posted scores from the championship that all competitors were either F-UNC or FT/R UNC. Everyone at the championship was shooting for their F-Class NRA classification cards. The percentages were posted to the far right of the scores.

 

[memilanuk]

So... the 6CM has never been 'legal' in Tactical class, but you have a shooter who says he had been shooting one in Tactical class, and not making a secret of it, until this year when someone finally told him he couldn't shoot it in Tactical class.

Two different stories here. I think I'll step out and let you two figure out what happened between the two of ya. The rest of us have what we wanted to know... whether the cartridge had actually been 'banned' in even the remotest sense of the term or not.

BTW, congrats on what sounds like a good match, w/ excellent turnout. From what I've read of the match reports it appears the winds were pretty... challenging. Doesn't help people's scores, but always makes it more interesting!

 

[joesr]

I take full responsibility for this thread and the inaccuracies in the thread.

The 6CM was not banned from Mineral Wells.

I posted information that was not correct and for that I apologize.

It will not happen again.

Here is how this all went down.....

I received a phone call from a very excited customer....telling me that he had just won another match at Mineral Wells and he used the phrase "the 6CM is banned".

Not understanding, nor knowing that at the match different classes were shot, I assumed that the match director, for the given matches decided not to allow shooters to shoot the 6CM.

That is when I posted this.

,Understand that the only matches I shoot are XTC matches where there are no rifle classes and I'm not in loop on these type of matches, nor are many or any held in my area of the country)

After that I had several phone conversations with my customer and he did mention that he was shooting Tactical. I didn’t pay any attention to that mention as again I don't shoot those matches and honestly didn't understand the difference. I figured that all shooters shot under the same rules,as far as rifles go) and if the 6CM was not allowed in one it would not be allowed in all.

Later, he did explain to me that the rules were different for Tactical as he had ordered a 308 from my smith and it was on the way to him, for him to shoot these matches.

However, at that time I still was under the understanding that the rules for the Tactical matches had been changed because of the performance of the 6CM in those matches.

I never would, nor did I, post anything that I believed to be incorrect.

My integrity with people on this post and other posts are much to important to me for me to post a false, misleading topic.

I understand that many people think I post on here to sell the 6CM. That is not true. I post on here for many reasons. In regards to the 6CM, it is not to sell, but to prove and to brag about how great of a cartridge is the 6CM.

There is no need for me to lie about it nor is there any reason for me to sell it.

The 6CM is what it is and the people shooting it know.

As far as selling it....I don't care if anyone else chambers a barrel in the 6CM. The reason for all of this was to prove that a 6mm could get over 3000 rounds per barrel and shoot winning scores,no Moly). I've done that. I do not feed my family with the 6CM....I only feed my ego.

I apologize for the inaccuracies in this topic and I hope that all of you may understand.

Joe Hendricks

 

[rcw3]

Joe

I don't understand the fuss on the wording "banned from Mineral Wells",actually I thought your title was kind of catchy, albeit not quite factually correct in hindsight).

I have no doubt that the amounts you have made on the sales of the 6CM are paltry and don't come anywhere near to covering the time and money you have spent on this cartridge - that's kind of how it goes with these things. I don't see you "getting rich" off the 6CM and I don't know of anyone in history who ever got rich off a cartridge they developed,I've developed a variety of them and I certainly never found a way to make any real money off them).

I'll give you this - the 6CM is an excellent cartridge, and it has some unique aspects to it, it's also easy to make, easy to load for, and inherently accurate. I won't go so far as to say it's better than everything else out there, but it is worthy of merit and consideration by shooters The 6CM is your baby and I understand your passion, enthusiasm and zeal over it. What the heck, if you don't believe in it, why should anyone else?

Robert Whitley

 

[LESLEY]

I started shooting the 6 cm at ft wolters in august of 2006 i never kept it from anyone everyone there knew what me and kent were shooting. THIS LAST FEBUARY is when we were told we could not shoot it anymore. At the sametime there was 1 really good shooter there that was shooting a 260 that was shooting right with us. I have talk to most of the people that have been shooting the stockholder matches and i have not found 1 yet that did not know what i was shooting. So do not start getting on Joes ass i have since been shooting a 308 WHICH FOR SOME REASON everyone keeps looking at and asking about it is the gunsmith and the time the triger puller puts in. I shoot every day of the week I live to shoot I have been lucky enough in life to have the time to build any gun i want and have time to work with it . So as far as the 6 cm being banned it was 2 of us shot it for 6 months in a tact class that was not a NRA match it was a club match. And as i said before now you can only shoot a 223 308 or 30/06 . And i do not think a 30/06 is a tact rifle according to the NRA. SO if were going to shoot the Stockholder matches with NRA rules no more 30/06 and there is no reason to keep asking me every match if my gun is a reapeter because i single shot is allowed in F/TR . I am also the onlyone that has been ask what there gun wieght is. I love shooting . I just think we need a fix set of rules. If i was told from the start i could not shoot what i was shooting and the others that were shooting other calibers we would have changed. And if the one posting on here known as stockholder is George please call me 940-366-1669. I am not trying to be an ass your matches is the reason i keep shooting and i would like to keep shooting there.

 

[SteveUrban]

Again, for those of you that have not read the new "F" class rules here is a link. http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7494

 

[denobravo]

I am trying to get a hold of Mr Hendricks
anyone have contact info ??