Yet another neck tension thread.

Discussion in 'Reloading Forum (All Calibers)' started by IHFarmer07, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. IHFarmer07

    IHFarmer07

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    Question for the very knowledgeable community here: I am shooting a .224 Valkyrie in a remage setup that has very good potential, I am having issues with neck tension something terrible and I’m starting to get discouraged with it all.
    Here is my process on reloading:
    1-Clean brass
    2-Anneal with a Annie annealer
    3-Size with frorester co-ax and a forester FL die with a without the recapping pin/rod
    4-Trim, debur/chamfer
    5-Run a mandrel for final neck size

    I am using starline brass as that is the best brass to date for this cartridge. I have tried loads without the neck turned and now I have neck turned the brass that I am using at this point same issues. I hunt with this gun and shoot long range “recreationally” at targets at 600+ yrds and a 20fps gain in velocity will throw me off more than a foot almost(depending on exact range), I have narrowed it down to neck tension as I can feel the difference when mandrel sizing and I mark those pieces of brass and they always have a higher velocity. Mandrel sizing the brass is when I can feel what piece is more “grabby” and what is not and I have now been trying to sort the brass according to this “feel”, but it is still an issue. Is it the quality of the brass or am I missing something here.....please ask any questions that may help you understand as sometimes when typing I don’t always remember every detail.
     
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  2. Zero333

    Zero333 Silver $$ Contributor

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    Did you try playing with different neck tension ???

    How much neck interference are you loading them at ???
     
  3. IHFarmer07

    IHFarmer07

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    Yes I have....I have played with .002”, .001”, I’m at .0015 now and I’ve even bought and played with a Redding bushing die with bushings .245, .246, .247, .248, I tried .245 and loading straight off that without mandrel sizing and that didn’t turn out very good the little I tried, about 20 rounds and quit.
     
  4. 243winxb

    243winxb

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    Looks like you have 2 sizing methods. Using factory brass and neck turned brass.

    Measure the outside neck diameters, before and after seating a bullet. The neck must expand a minium of .002" or more, after the bullet is seated.
     
  5. IHFarmer07

    IHFarmer07

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    Ok just measured a few cases, now this could be the problem, maybe not idk, .248” od at the mouth and .249” od at where the neck turning tool stopped on a sized empty shell. Loaded round on 2 rounds are .249 at the mouth and .250 at where the turning tool stopped.....now I have been using a .2225 mandrel but on these I thought I’d try the forester die with the decapping/sizing stem just to try and find something that solves the problem. The forester die specs are supposed to be .248” and .249 with .001” spring back. Also I have found with the turning tool that the turning arbor that the case goes over, I can put the arbor in the case to a point and then it gets tight at the base of the neck junction where the shoulder starts. It’s like it has a donut there, which I’ve heard of, but never thought it can happen to factory brass that don’t have to go through a process to make this cartridge.
     
  6. Zero333

    Zero333 Silver $$ Contributor

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    You can try the Redding Dry Neck Lube and see if things improve when seating bullets.

    I find Annealing can make inside the neck friction inconsistent.
     
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  7. IHFarmer07

    IHFarmer07

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    Ok, I use imperial dry neck lube here and there for when I mandrel size but not consistently.
    Ya I have noticed that, it is like you degreased the crap out of it after annealing.
    I have been trying different time on the annealing, I was at 1.8, 1.9, 2.0 and 2.2 sec now with the Annie. Seeing if I can get more consistency on sizing and idk if I’m annealing too long or too short of time.

    I have also noticed when annealing with the Annie that some brass glows more than others, could that be an issue as well with a list of issues I have going on. Other ppl that have been using this brass don’t seem to have any issues like I do it seems because they don’t talk about it.
     
  8. gman47564

    gman47564

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    any brass can form a doughnut... when you seat a bullet does it seat easy for a ways and then get harder to seat... you may need to use a inside neck reamer..
     
  9. IHFarmer07

    IHFarmer07

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    Not that I can tell, but I really notice it when trying to turn the neck and I darn neared have to force the shell on to the mandrel/arbor of the neck turning tool when the base of the neck reaches the end of the arbor/mandrel of the tool(btw) is a rcbs neck turning tool....
     
  10. 243Lapua

    243Lapua Silver $$ Contributor

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    Mine is not a Valkyrie. I shoot a 6.5x47. And I noticed that it shot excellent groups with new brass. I then started reloading my brass and using different tensions and then I would run a mandrel to uniform the neck. I noticed that it would not shoot as good. As when the brass was new. I stopped using the mandrel and I only played with tension. And I also started full length sizing my brass. I used a .288, .287, .286. .285.. 288 would give me decent groups, but when I used .287 my groups decrease. Played with 286 tension a groups were even better. I bought the .285 bushing just to see if it would improve even more. I was really surprised at what it did to my group size. I would consider it as shooting bugholes. So I guess my rifle and load development liked more tension on the case neck.
     
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  11. gman47564

    gman47564

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    sounds to me like you have the dreaded doughnut in there... I would run a inside neck reamer in them …
     
  12. daleboy

    daleboy Silver $$ Contributor

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    Is your brass glowing bright red ?
     
  13. IHFarmer07

    IHFarmer07

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    It don’t matter, anything that can shed some light on what is going on, as you all can probably tell I’m on the new side of reloading and this is the first cartridge I decided to reload for as it is reasonably cheap and I’d rather play with this one and find/figure things out before getting into my bigger calibers with more powder, more expensive bullets ect.... thank you all.
     
  14. IHFarmer07

    IHFarmer07

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    No not bright red, it just gets a flash of a dull red and then done, but some casings seems to get a little more than a dull red(not much but enough to notice).....I have played with tempilaq and I made a mistake and got 700F stuff when I should’ve gotten 750F but I have read both ways on the tempilaq degree on rifle brass.
     
  15. IHFarmer07

    IHFarmer07

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    That’s what I was wandering as well but I figured I’d had enough and decided to ask the professionals here. Will have to get one and try it. Thank you
     
  16. searcher

    searcher Gold $$ Contributor

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    If you are indeed turning your necks to a uniform thickness, using a bushing die WITH NO EXPANDER BALL to provide no more than .003" of friction, performing a very careful inside chamfer and either lubricating your necks or using a coated bullet (best for uniform release in my opinion), I would start looking elsewhere for any velocity deviations. Do you weigh each charge on a good scale to 1/20th of a grain or less? Check flash hole uniformity? Try different primers? Sure that all pieces of brass are trimmed to same length AND at least .003" shorter than the max length for your chamber? There is always a reason for those issues and process of elimination sometimes just has to be done. Sometimes it can be quite amazing the size difference of flash holes in some brass. I once nearly went crazy before I found that my chamber was cut short in respect to the neck, meaning I needed a trim length much shorter than "book" trim length for the cartridge. When you think you have done everything right and begin to question individual pieces of brass - you can do what I do. I take 100 rounds of very carefully loaded match ammo and I shoot every round over the chrono while practicing. Each piece is marked with a velocity on a piece of masking tape. Then take any aside that are way out. You can shoot them again over the chrono when practicing to verify it is the brass - which the problem almost certainly will be if it occurs twice. As to the remaining 90% to 95% or so that made the cut the first time - organize them in your loading tray by starting with, for example all within 3 f.p.s., then the next higher 3 f.p.s. group, and so on until you are done. When I change to a new group, I either leave a space or place the beginning round of the new batch upside down so I know when I'm switching to a new velocity. While I wouldn't expect the brass to shoot within 3 fps of what it did previously (due to differences in humidity in powder, primer difference, bullet diameter variation or weight, etc.), what I have done is take out the ones I know were way off and just eliminate them from being a potential problem. If my grouping the rest increases the odds of most of the ammo behaving similarly on the next firing - it is worth it.
     
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  17. dgeesaman

    dgeesaman Gold $$ Contributor

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    Try the Redding dry neck lube on each mandrel expansion. I find I don't need to use more when seating the bullet but you can try that both ways too.
     
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  18. Longtrain

    Longtrain Silver $$ Contributor

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    FWIW, I struggled with vertical for a while in competition, found my scale wasn’t consistent after checking on a high end digital and good check weights. Switched to an A&D EJ123 scale and have never made more accurate loads. Actually had SD of 3 with a limited batch of primers I had, current one’s I have a SD of 5, I’ll take it.
     
  19. Olde Man

    Olde Man Silver $$ Contributor

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    The one thing that smooths out my bullet seating pressure is to run a nylon bore brush in a drill or screwdriver in and out of the neck before filling with powder. This is really important if you use a mandrel. Medium speed and then just in and then out. It seems to polish the carbon or smooth it out. Sounds crazy but my seating pressure inconsistencies all but disappeared.
     
  20. 243winxb

    243winxb

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    Take the neck turned brass and bushing die. Adjust bushing to size 1/2 to 3/4 of the neck.
    No expander needed when using the correcf bushing. Aim for .002" neck tension.
    A donut will not be a problem any more, but will be in a tight neck chamber.

    Factory brass should not have a problem donut and should never be inside neck reamed. Use the bushing as i said above.

    Redding_1.JPG.jpg Bushing neck sizing_zpsdrqj9rw8.JPG.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
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