Yet another Annealing Question, but bare with me please!

[mac86951]

Ok, Yes I've done my forum search, no I'm not annealing for the need of exceptional accuracy and the desire to anneal before each reload.

I'm asking experienced shooters opinions on this: Without the funds of an annealing machine, and without the desire to send my range brass to an annealing outsource, and with my utmost ability to bear the humility of annealing range brass to begin with I'd like to know your opinions on the following:

Using a single propane torch hand-held is it possible to get a worthwhile anneal, or is this just wasting time and effort?

I'd be annealing .223, and I'm not looking to extend the life of the brass, but see if I can improve accuracy uniformity from older (10-12 reloads).

If so, what minimalist investment/process/set-up would you recommend or have experience with?

Thank you,
-Mac

 

[jonbearman]

You would need a torch and a socket set with a socket to use as a driver and an adaptor to fit the socket so you can chuck it up in a cordless drill or whatever you have. The socket does not need to be tight to drive it,just try them(.223) in a socket till it is just sloppy and it will spin the case fine. Then get some tempilac,650 degree at midway and put a stripe in the neck and one below the body shoulder junction and spin it with heat and as soon as it foes clear(tempilac) stop and quench or drop it in a pan without water as it doesn't really matter. Your done.

 

[Joe R]

mac86951 said: Using a single propane torch hand-held is it possible to get a worthwhile anneal, or is this just wasting time and effort?

I'd be annealing .223, and I'm not looking to extend the life of the brass, but see if I can improve accuracy uniformity from older (10-12 reloads).

If so, what minimalist investment/process/set-up would you recommend or have experience with?

I know this may really thick some people off, but here I go.

To answer your question my answer is very simple. Annealing is actually the simplest thing to do in the whole reloading process. You can spend more money on an annealing machine, but it won't improve the socket and cordless drill method. It simple and it works. I do it without tempilac, I used an infrared thermometer for the first few times and then I realized that all I had to do is watch the case neck change color (4-5 seconds on a .308).

If you watch the YouTube videos on the machines, they are all driven by time, not temperature. The only machine that saves a user time is the Giraud annealer because you can set a stack of cases and walk away. The other machines you have to sit there and insert one case at the time, you might as well do it yourself, not to mention that some use two burner to make-up for the fact that they don't spin the case.

If you have a Harbor Freight near you a cordless drill will set you back $15 and a 10mm deep socket is another $1.50. And after you've done the first 20 you'll wonder why you ever worried about such a simple job. The other nice thing about using the drill and socket is that it takes very little room in my garage.

 

[222 rem]

I follow the same procedure and the previous post.
With a MAP gas torch it is around 6 seconds to get to temperature.
Cleaning of the inside of case necks is critical after annealing.
I use balistol and a wire brush turned in a drill.

 

[Joe R]

I use a very dark room to see the color change.

Say what???
If it's a dark room I assume you're seeing a glow right? I think that may be too hot.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. A dark room, a drill and torch, that seems like a recipe for an accident.

I use a well lit garage. When I see the case shoulder get a brighter/cleaner brass color ( and I can see the color creeping downwards) I drop the case in a disposable aluminum pan. You'll be knocking off 100 cases in 15 minutes just as you're getting in the groove.

 

[BoydAllen]

Do a search on what Ken Light has written about annealing, then read it twice. A friend uses the Hornady setup, with an addition that I suggested. Because timing is so critical, as well as position relative to the flame, I suggested that he buy an inexpensive battery powered electronic metronome, so that he can hear the seconds tick off. He sets it to 60 beats a minute, and it has helped his consistency a lot. After the first couple of hundred cases, with the metronome, he became accustomed to watching the colors progress down the case, but it was a real help starting out. The reason that he started annealing was that his seating force was inconsistent, and after he did, that became much more uniform, and his groups improved. When we were setting up a friend's annealing machine, the kind that pauses the case in the flames and then moves it out, there was no glowing of the neck, but, just at the instant that the case was moved out of the flames, there was a little bit of yellow flame coming off of the very edge of the case mouth, for just an instant, very small, but you could see that something happened. I suggest that you practice on range brass or the like, and go slow when reading someones recommendation about heating necks till they glow, even slightly in a darkened room. Your reading of Light's thoughts should reinforce that.

 

[Killick]

This is what I'm working on. I've got the motor, controller, 9 volt batt. power source and am waiting for the RepRap tooth pulleys and belt. I just have to mount it into a project enclosure (@8"x10"x4") and Bob's your uncle. Total cost will be @$50 (not including torch)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dONsoESSdNc

 

[BoydAllen]

Wow! Very clever.

 

[1066]

This is what I'm working on. I've got the motor, controller, 9 volt batt. power source and am waiting for the RepRap tooth pulleys and belt. I just have to mount it into a project enclosure (@8"x10"x4") and Bob's your uncle. Total cost will be @$50 (not including torch)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dONsoESSdNc

That's excellent sir. I have made one similar but using a much smaller 4" drum.

This is a different set-up.

Here's my mark 3.
http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v639/allan1066/anmk3_zpsd1f4e6c3.mp4

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I tested annealed vs un annealed brass in 1k benchrest. Same gun but I shot annealed in LG and un annealed in HG. I promise you the gain from annealing over un annealed brass in the same firing rotation is minute. Almost not even noticeable. And some powders need more neck tension than you will be able to achieve with annealed brass. Work up your load with un annealed brass, make sure to sort out any that dont feel the same during the seating process. Then try a small batch of annealed brass, it may hurt it may help. Since the whole idea is consistency I recommend you either do it with a machine or not at all.

 

[trpcboy]

1066,
You did a lot of design on that brass annealer, looks good. I build one that looks like the Bench Source (one torch and turns the brass). I use a stepper motor and an Arduino Unio processer to control it. I have a digital read out to set the time under the flame. I converted my LP torch to a 20# bottle and use an inline pressure regulator. I just did 100 30BR cases yesterday. Cost about $150.00.

John
Mims, Fl

 

[1066]

1066,
You did a lot of design on that brass annealer, looks good. I build one that looks like the Bench Source (one torch and turns the brass). I use a stepper motor and an Arduino Unio processer to control it. I have a digital read out to set the time under the flame. I converted my LP torch to a 20# bottle and use an inline pressure regulator. I just did 100 30BR cases yesterday. Cost about $150.00.

John
Mims, Fl

Thank you John, always nice to get some encouragement. My first annealer was a turntable type running from an internal 1lb Coleman disposable bottle. It worked fine but the system for turning the cases in the flame was poor. I guess your processor system must give pretty well infinite control.

 

[nhm16]

Before I got my Benchsource annealer, I used the Hornady annealing setup, which is just a fancy version of the socket technique mentioned above. In fact if you want it I'll sell you mine (minus the Tempilaq, which you can get at Grainger, etc.), just PM me.

Annealing by hand works fine, and it's foolproof if you use Tempilaq on every case, it's just really tedious compared to a machine.

 

[mac86951]

Thank you everyone on the great advice. Interesting that for the first thread I've read in a while, most agree that it can be done by hand, and a home-made machine for consistency is really for consistency control and hands-free operation. I've got a few arduinos and R-pis floating around, perhaps I'll borrow them from my brewing setup later, but I'll try the Tempilac and socket method first to see if I get any significant changes (starting with Range brass incase I over temp some).

-Mac

 

[jnyfeler]

Do a search on what Ken Light has written about annealing, then read it twice.

+1. I used to anneal by hand -- and the chuck was my hand! The Ken Light machine is NOT cheap, but is IS nice! What an amazingly better way to anneal than my old method.

Jeff

 

[Brians356]

Read these instructions from Hornady:

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/manuals-discontinued/metalic-reloading/tools/Annealing-Kit-instructions.pdf

They don't make the kit any longer, but all you need is the Tempilaq liquid (MidwayUSA sells the bottles, get the 450f stuff) and use either a deep socket, or do as I did and get one of Lee's inexpensive case trimmers and locks stud for 223 Rem. (you need one of each of these):

http://leeprecision.com/cutter-lock-stud.html
http://leeprecision.com/gage-holder-223-rem.html

This case holder/locking stud locks on your case, and has a hex shaft that will mount directly into an electric screwdriver:
I bought this cheap B&D screwdriver for the task:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Black-Decker-2.4V-Direct-Plug-Screwdriver/10779759

Finally, I recommend this butane torch - it has hands-free "on", good heat output, nice flame adjustment, and stands up well (you need to buy the butane separately):

https://www.masterappliance.com/heat-tool-products/butane-powered/microtorches/microtorch-mt-76

With these items you can just follow Hornady's instructions. I found for a 6mm Rem case, it takes 17 seconds to melt the Tempilaq paint placed ~1/4 inch below the shoulder, with the torch set on the lowest setting possible. Once you get the hang of it, you can just count the seconds and not bother putting the Tempilaq on the cases. (I use a cheap metronome set to 60 beats/sec to help me count the seconds.)

As soon as you have heated the neck the right number of seconds, just dunk the case (still attached to screwdriver) into a pan of cool water to quench it, then release the case, attach the next case, heat it, etc.)

 

[Nomad47]

Read these instructions from Hornady:

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/manuals-discontinued/metalic-reloading/tools/Annealing-Kit-instructions.pdf

They don't make the kit any longer, but all you need is the Tempilaq liquid (MidwayUSA sells the bottles, get the 450f stuff) and use either a deep socket, or do as I did and get one of Lee's inexpensive case trimmers and locks stud for 223 Rem. (you need one of each of these):

http://leeprecision.com/cutter-lock-stud.html
http://leeprecision.com/gage-holder-223-rem.html

This case holder/locking stud locks on your case, and has a hex shaft that will mount directly into an electric screwdriver:
I bought this cheap B&D screwdriver for the task:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Black-Decker-2.4V-Direct-Plug-Screwdriver/10779759

Finally, I recommend this butane torch - it has hands-free "on", good heat output, nice flame adjustment, and stands up well (you need to buy the butane separately):

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Master-Appliance-MT-51-Open-Flame-Master-Microtorch-2500-F/21188988

With these items you can just follow Hornady's instructions. I found for a 6mm Rem case, it takes 17 seconds to melt the Tempilaq paint placed ~1/4 inch below the shoulder, with the torch set on the lowest setting possible. Once you get the hang of it, you can just count the seconds and not bother putting the Tempilaq on the cases. (I use a cheap metronome set to 60 beats/sec to help me count the seconds.)

As soon as you have heated the neck the right number of seconds, just dunk the case (still attached to screwdriver) into a pan of cool water to quench it, then release the case, attach the next case, heat it, etc.)

Cool water? Quench it? Why do people instruct others to do something that is totally unnecessary?
The annealing stops the moment the brass is removed from the flame. NO NEED TO QUENCH.

 

[Brians356]

Why do people instruct others to do something that is totally unnecessary?

Because we're stupid? Or reasonable people sometimes disagree? I give up - why?

I quench for two reasons (see if you can follow me):

1. Hornady's instructions, followed to the letter, do specify quenching. It's easiest for me to just refer to those instructions and not offer changes. (Incidentally, Hornady does know a little about brass cases, so it's just remotely possible they're right, and you're wrong on this. I know it's a long shot.)

2. By quenching, the case immediately cools enough to detach it from the Lee locking case holder. If I was using just a deep socket, I could knock it loose without handling the hot case.

I need to correct something, the butane torch I use is not the MT-51, it's the MT-76:

https://www.masterappliance.com/heat-tool-products/butane-powered/microtorches/microtorch-mt-76

(I'll edit my original post as well.)

 

[Nomad47]

If Hornady says you HAVE to quench, then they are dead wrong.

What bothers me is you stated the quenching part like it is a fact. That is misleading to others, particularly new annealers. If you do enough research, you will find that quenching is totally unnecessary.

 

[Brians356]

If Hornady says you HAVE to quench, then they are dead wrong.

What bothers me is you stated the quenching part like it is a fact. That is misleading to others, particularly new annealers. If you do enough research, you will find that quenching is totally unnecessary.

<sigh> All I did was say "Read these instructions from Hornady", and since they (not I) say to quench, I did echo that later while explaining about removing the case from the locking holder, since (as I just explained) the case will be too hot to handle unless you quench it. Read that again. The case will be too hot to handle ( unless you want to wait an extra few minutes for each one to cool, but why wait when it so so easy to quench?)

I fully admit I am treating quenching "as a fact" since (again, as I just explained) that's what Hornady says.

Hornady may be DEAD wrong, but tell that to Hornady, don't bother browbeating me about your dispute with Hornady. I'm just the piano player here.

I have done a lot of research on annealing, and I am not convinced quenching is necessary. However, the dean of custom case forming, Ken Howell, who wrote the bible "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges", thinks you need to quench. That's good enough for me.

Probably the best way to resolve it is to realize it cannot hurt to quench, it is very quick and easy to quench, so why not quench and be 100% sure not to be on the dangerous side of the outcome?