Why not the 280Rem??

Discussion in 'Big Stuff--7mm, 30 Cal, .338+' started by roysclockgun, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. roysclockgun

    roysclockgun

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    A 7mm modern bonded 140gr bullet is more than capable of cleanly killing the largest bull elk with thru and thru hits to the heart/lung area, out as far as a hunter can hit. With hand loads one can get right at or a little above 3250fps MV using that bullet in the 7mm Rem Mag.

    Hand loading the same bullet in my 280Rem I am getting 3050+ fps MV. Realizing that many of you have no interests in practical hunting practices, I thought you may still entertain this question.

    Does the game know the difference out to a reasonable hunting range of 400 yards? ...... Others want to kill at greater ranges, but I have no interest in doing that, because I believe that to give game a fair shot, one should hunt and kill him while you are both in the same county. I was on a hunt in Craig, Co. in Dec. 2016. A number of the hunters used computerized scopes that when set up, will dope out bullet drop and do everything save for pulling the trigger. One young man killed a big mule deer buck at just over 800 yards with his rig. Again, my question would be; is he hunting or simply long range killing? Out there, in big country, with good optics, one can set up high and pick out game at 1000+ yards. But is to kill them out that far sporting?

    7mmRemMag VS 280Rem VS 7x57mmMauser VS 7mm-08? They all use the excellent flying 7mm bullet, shown on ballistics tables to be better up to the 175gr. range of bullet weights, than are 30 cal. bullets. I have long been a proponent of the 7mm bullet over the much more popular 30cal because of the 7mm superior ballistics down range.

    Using the modern bonded bullets and of course, good bullet placement no elk can live thru being hit well with a 140 gr. 7mm bonded bullet.

    The current rage to put bullets in small groups on paper at extreme range is a game unto itself and I am not knocking that. What I am saying is that for a "fair chase hunt" range should be limited to how far away the game can detect the hunter, which puts the hunter in the position of stalking in the correct manner, so that he can get within 400 yards or less. At that range, I have seldom gotten deer type animals in my sight picture, without having them looking right at me. Their superior hearing and olfactory senses warn them when man is in the area and puts them on the alert. While their sight may not be great, they do detect movement, which gives them one more defense.

    Of the cartridges using 7mm bullets, only the 7mmRemMag and 7mm-08 remain on many ammunition shelves. I would hand load my 280Rem anyway because I like "rolling my own", but if I did not, I'd have to search to find factory ammo. Same goes for the old stand by 7x57mm Mauser round, which is a great round, but like the 30-06 lacks the sex appeal of more recently developed cartridges.

    The the .284 bullet used in the 280Rem is superior to the .277 bullet used in the 270Win. and, in my opinion, also superior to the 30cal used in 30-06, all three of which use the same parent cartridge case, the 280Rem lost out, in the main because the other two were already out there in huge numbers. If a shooter is already using either a rifle in 270Win or 30-06, I would be hard pressed to convince him to swap for the 280Rem, unless like me, he is a fanatical hand loader and wants the top performing cartridge within the limits that I have outlined.

    Bottom line, if a newby wants to hand load and enjoys something just a little different running than what one sees among the herd, then take a look at the 280Rem.
     
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  2. Patton243

    Patton243 Silver $$ Contributor

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    I have a 280 Rem. Only complaint I have is the brass sucks for the cartridge. Nosler, Hornady and Norma are all soft, Winchester makes nickle plated which is garbage, so I use Remington that needs prep work. Aside from that, the cartridge is good overall. I still prefer my 7 mag on windy days. For a competitor, you're better off with a 284 since you can get better brass. Not to mention I'm a firm believer in a short fat case over a long pencil like one such as the 280. There's better options on the market than a 280 IMO, and that's why it will always be an uncommon cartridge. Not going to lie, when I re barrel my 280 it's going 284. Peterson even makes 284 brass now too which is a nice offering for the Winchester.
     
  3. 284winner

    284winner Gold $$ Contributor

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    Opinions certainly vary on some of the questions you raise. My personal answer is YES, it's all hunting even if a shooter shoots an animal for 800 yards away with a LR rig. He put days into shooting and still had to hunt to find the shooter buck or game animal to harvest. Today's technology is just changing so much that even archers are placing broadheads arrows on game animals at 100 yards. Vertical bows, not just crossbows. It's a different time. With all the high bc hunting bullets and equipment, it's kinda the norm today. The .280 Remington is one of the best hunting cartridges out there. Doesn't matter it's popularity. That doesn't take from the facts. People just cling to newer and more popular cartridges. Ones with fancier names. Means nothing. The .280 will be a fantastic hunting cartridge to many hunters for their entire life and carry it throughout that period. If I owned one, I'd make it my deer hunting rifle as we. I built a 284 on a short action platform for that purpose. I just prefer a short action rifle for my deer gun.
     
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  4. msinc

    msinc

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    My personal choice is the 280 A.I. so we see eye to eye on the 7mm thing, but I don't believe it so superior that other cartridges in the same class are less of a gun or choice. This is gonna sound anti-hunting for some, but I assure you I am not...have hunted all my life and have no intention to stop. Where we differ is the whole "sporting", "hunting", "fair chase" thing. Those are feel good words, lets not kid ourselves, my word for all this would be, "one-sided". What is "sporting" and "fair" about shooting an animal with a high powered rifle...at any range?? Forget about a computerized scope. Substitute these words with "effective" or "humane" in your question and now you've got a viable argument.
    So, is it sporting and fair chase to shoot an elk at 400 yards with a 280 and a premium 140 grain hunting bullet??? No, that would involve putting a rifle in the elks hands and teaching him {to come in your house} and shoot back. Take out the feel goods and ask it right, is it effective and humane to??? Yep.....all day long!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
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  5. Dud

    Dud

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    Hunting ethics are a weird thing.

    I kind of think it's a bit unethical to shoot if the animal could take one step while the bullet is in the air and turn a vital organ shot in to a wounding shot.

    If you're going to kill an animal, you should do your best to kill it cleanly without unnecessary suffering.

    Really long shots add a variable that can turn a good shot bad so that should be factored in the ethics calculation.

    As far as how much rifle is enough, that really depends on the game.

    When you treat marksmanship as a sport and you're shooting paper or steel gongs, safety is the only ethical concern (beside sportsmanship) so a little 224 Valkyrie that barely has enough juice to penetrate paper at over 1,000 yards is fine. You don't have to worry about wounding, ruining meat, or trying to explain how hunting is a big part of game management to idiots that would rather see mass extinction due to poaching when the money stops.

    The other side of this is varmint hunting. Lots of people practice long range shooting on nuisance animals. Wounding happens and nobody cares because they aren't hunting, they are exterminating a pest.

    Usually they are destructive animals so ethics isn't a concern but it might give me some pause if I was invited to try it at really long range.
     
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  6. Barlow

    Barlow Silver $$ Contributor

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    280 or 280AI with 160's imho would be hard to beat. I held a new Savage in 280AI a few days ago. It's catching on as it should. Barlow
     
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  7. 284winner

    284winner Gold $$ Contributor

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    Too bad that 160 factory ammo isn't available for the 280, only the 280 AI. The heaviest I've seen is the 150 eldx in the 280. I think i've seen one company offer the 162 eldx but it's a hand loaded ammo sold as such.
     
  8. AckleymanII

    AckleymanII Silver $$ Contributor

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    Nosler manual number four has a load for the 280 that we have used over the years:

    160g
    IMR 7828
    2930 fps out of 24" barrels, bolt actions only

    This has proved to be a white tail smashing load with 160g Sierra btsp, near and far.
     
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  9. JEFFPPC

    JEFFPPC Silver $$ Contributor

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    I have shot the .280 for deer since its beginnings.I have killed them from 20 yds to over 700 yds. I have used a lot of bullets. Under 500 yds have mostly used 139 SpirePoints. Over 500 I have had great results with Speer 160 Soft point boattails. To satisfy my questions on the SMK 168, I shot an 8 point at 350 yds this year that went down so quick I thought I missed it and it ran. That bullet did not exit, chest cavity apeared to be nothing but tomato soup. Has been a great cartridge for me.
     
  10. IdahoSharpshooter

    IdahoSharpshooter Gold $$ Contributor

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    !. it has the same case capacity as the 1/2"+/- shorter 284 which does NOT require a long action. Everybody and their dog has a Remy SA laying around the shop.
     
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  11. Dud

    Dud

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    284 in a short action is hamstringing yourself. 284 in a long action let's you shoot 180+ grain stuff. I'm trying Berger 184s. There is no way that fits in a short action unless you single load and I'm not sure the bolt throw would be enough to eject an unfired round with a bullet that long.

    The benefit to the 284 is that the powder column is shorter which means a more consistent burn and in a long action, plenty of room to load long.
     
  12. Evan

    Evan Gold $$ Contributor

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    Anymore, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that I need anything bigger than a 260/6.5 Creedmoor to hunt anything in North America. All your arguments for the 280 equally apply to 6.5mm for me, and they have a long and illustrious hunting history in Europe on all game, including some very tough moose(talking about 6.5x55 Swed here, but the 6.5's are all pretty much the same in hunting performance).
     
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  13. Dud

    Dud

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    You're right but if you want to shoot a mile+, 7mm makes sense and there is no reason not to use it on game at reasonable distances if you want to.
     
  14. 284winner

    284winner Gold $$ Contributor

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    My post was regarding the 160-168 grain bullets in a short action 284 that sends the 162s at 3000 fps using RL17 at 2.950" OAL. It has a 25 " barrel. You'd be defeating your purpose with a 284 in a SA platform trying the 180s. My LA 284 uses an OAL of 3.2 with 180s. Sends them down range around 2975 with RL17. It sports a 28" barrel.
     
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  15. AckleymanII

    AckleymanII Silver $$ Contributor

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    284, that is one heck of a rifle and load!
     
  16. Dud

    Dud

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    I was referring to Idaho sharpshooter's post.

    I'm pretty sure anyone with the handle of 284winner probably knows what 284 is good for.
     
  17. 284winner

    284winner Gold $$ Contributor

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    You know, I wasn't sure how the 284 would turn out in a SA platform. At first I thought maybe I should just build a 7-08 since it's on a short action thinking I'd give up to much performance with the 284. Too my surprise just the opposite happened. I listened and read opinions by alot of guys about the 284 just not being practical in a short action. This is a perfect case of seeing is believing. Running the Reloader 17 with 53.5 grains behind 162 Amax's, it just blew me away to not only get 3000 fps easily but get incredible accuracy. I'd not believe it unless I saw it. It's a 25" barrel so still a great hunting length rifle. I remember shooting my 7mm Rem magnum using 160 Noslers at around 2900+ from a 26" barrel. So much more powder, longer barrel and a magnum cartridge. Today pushing the 162s at 3000 with a SA 284 is a Testimate to how far we've come with powders. Without pressure or compressed loads in this rifle, I'm still fairly sure the RL17 will be harder on the barrel giving less barrel life. For a hunting rifle I suppose that means i may get 40 years of service instead of 50.
     
  18. 284winner

    284winner Gold $$ Contributor

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    There are alot of 284 shooters that I'm sure I could learn even more from about the 284. I'm a hunter and yet still enjoy shooting alot of LR targets. I'm just not much for competition shooting at this point. I suppose I've learned alot about the cartridges strengths and weaknesses in the field and range as all cartridges have both. For me, it's a fabulous deer round and apparently a pretty decent 1000 yard competition cartridge. I built the SA 284 strictly for a deer rifle. So many cartridges fill the bill of being great deer rounds but for me the 284 is my choice. I grew up behind the Winchester model 100 in 284 for deer. Killed dozens with of deer with it. Knowing in a bolt action, it's potential is maximized, I set one up for deer hunting. I'm not done learning about the cartridge and sure enjoy shooting it.
     
  19. Ares

    Ares

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    RWS /RUAG does produce quality brass for the 280.Rem. But i guess you have'nt tried it.
    And if one is to use the 280.AI there are chamber variants that fits necked down Lapua 30-06 brass.
     
  20. Barlow

    Barlow Silver $$ Contributor

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    I don't understand Savage putting a 22" barrel on it, I prefer 24"-26" myself. Why put a governor on this cartridge? Barlow
     
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