Which Widden insert to point Berger 90VLD (223)

Discussion in 'Small Stuff--22s, 20s, and 17s' started by Michael C, Aug 19, 2017.

  1. Michael C

    Michael C Silver $$ Contributor

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    I cant seem to find out what insert to use on the Widden pointing die for the Berger 90VLD (223). Can anyone here tell me?
    PS: Shot the 90 SMK in my new 223 Palma rifle at a 3x600 last weekend with 24.5g Varget and it was shooting really well. It was so nice to have almost zero recoil over my 308.
    Mike
     
  2. BP1

    BP1 Gold $$ Contributor

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    I just ordered the pointing die set yesterday for .224 and .30cal and I want to say 1 for .224 90gr. He has a chart for that on his web site.
     
  3. gstaylorg

    gstaylorg Silver $$ Contributor

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    Insert #1:

    http://www.whiddengunworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DIE-INSERT-CHART.pdf
     
  4. Michael C

    Michael C Silver $$ Contributor

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    Oh my gosh, I don't know how I missed it. But, I looked on his website and I thought the list looked different. Anyway, thank you both, I have the #1 insert.
     
  5. jsthntn247

    jsthntn247 Silver $$ Contributor

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    Make sure you point a few and test. I had bad, bad, bad results with pointing 90's. Might try it again shortly and see if it was just a fluke.
     
  6. gstaylorg

    gstaylorg Silver $$ Contributor

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    Brad - I recall you mentioning that before. I have pointed the 90s using the Whidden die from the first day, and done numerous side-by-side tests of pointed versus unpointed. I've never observed any negative effect that could be directly attributed to pointing. In my hands, pointed 90s group more consistently and require less elevation to hit the same POI, which is noticeable even at a distance of only 300 yd. That makes me wonder about how your pointing process might differ from mine. With pointing, a little can go a long way. There is no need whatsoever to completely [or almost completely] close off the meplat; even a 40-50% reduction in meplat size will knock down the sharp edges and provide a ballistic advantage. This also minimizes the chances of over-pointing and creating a "bulge" behind the point. If you decide to revisit pointing the 90s, I'd suggest starting out very conservative with regard to how far you close the meplat; it might give better results.
     
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  7. Michael C

    Michael C Silver $$ Contributor

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    I have been pointing my 223 Berger 80.5s for about the last 500 rounds in my service rifle and I have to say you don't need to do much. I sort of look at it more like Uniforming the tips.
     
  8. Jdne5b

    Jdne5b Silver $$ Contributor

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    How much is it helping the 80.5s?
     
  9. Michael C

    Michael C Silver $$ Contributor

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    Keep in mind I am shooting them in a CMP legal service rifle with a 4.5x scope at 600. But, they do show a little less vertical and very high X count. Those matches only have 20 or 22 shots at 600 so it's not a big deal to point them. All the new SMKs are now coming pointed (long range type bullets) and I bet Berger will at some point as well. However, I still touch up my 155s for 308 Palma and also see less vertical. Since I got my auto trickler and fx120 scale I realized I am holding better than I thought I was. So, I have to contribute some of the tightness of my groups to that and never tested to confirm.
     
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  10. jsthntn247

    jsthntn247 Silver $$ Contributor

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    I might point a string for tomorrow's match and see what they do. I'll be able to take a pic of the monitor at the end of each string and see which holds the best vertical.
     
  11. Michael C

    Michael C Silver $$ Contributor

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    Post your results, as I think it would be interesting to know.
     
  12. jsthntn247

    jsthntn247 Silver $$ Contributor

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    Here is a pic of the pointed string. I dropped one shot out the bottom for a 199-11x. Been having a problem lately throwing shots low and high for no reason, come to find out on the last string yesterday I have a screw from my bipod laying on my mat and 2 more missing that keep the head tight and from wobbling when I fire.
    IMG_4806.JPG
     
  13. bench

    bench Silver $$ Contributor

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    jst,
    I know its hard to tell with loose screws but how do you think they shot once they were pointed?
     
  14. gstaylorg

    gstaylorg Silver $$ Contributor

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    The bipod screw issue could certainly result in vertical issues. However, in this case I believe the low shot had more to do with luck...notice it was shot #13 that was low...#13 is bad juju ;).
     
  15. jsthntn247

    jsthntn247 Silver $$ Contributor

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    They shot ok, definitely didn't hurt. After my last string, I had 9 "culls" left over. These were 3 different seating depths with 3 of the 9 bullets pointed (monthly matches I normally test a few things). Immediately after shooting my last string I started shooting the culls and I squeezed the rear bag to get my adjustments instead of using the joypod to adjust because I thought it might be the culprit of my vertical issues. 21,22,23 were low because they were seated .010 too deep. However, 24-29 went into half X ring vertical which included 3 pointed and 3 unpointed, so the pointed bullets didn't increases BC. Also, the wind was blowing and switching is a__ off at this point so I was making a quick wind call and shooting just to get a idea of vertical while squeezing the bag. One thing I definitely discovered was squeezing the bag for adjustment resulted in allot better vertical and pointing MIGHT result in more uniform BC and vertical dispersion but does not make a higher point of impact on target.
    IMG_4813.jpg
     
  16. gstaylorg

    gstaylorg Silver $$ Contributor

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    Was this at 600 yd? I have fired unpointed versus pointed 90 VLDs in otherwise identical loads side-by-side on several occasions at 300 yd. Even at that relatively short distance, the 15-shot groups that used the pointed bullets required 0.125 to 0.250 less elevation to center the group on the target. If you are using smaller numbers of pointed/unpointed bullets and shooting them all at the same target, you might not easily be able to distinguish the difference as well as you can for the center points of separate groups fired on adjacent targets. I've never done a direct side-by-side comparison at 600 yd, but using G7 BCs of .274 (unpointed) and 0.285 (pointed, 4% increase), JBM predicts a difference of 0.2 MOA (1.1"). Although not zero, that difference is well under the typical overall vertical dispersion you might expect for a group at that distance. If the required elevation difference between pointed and unpointed bullets is less than the total expected vertical dispersion for a group shot with either one by itself, it would be much more difficult to detect on a target with both pointed and unpointed rounds mixed together.
     
  17. jsthntn247

    jsthntn247 Silver $$ Contributor

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    I'm going to shoot a 1k match with it before too long and I'll re-test. If it helps, it will definitely show up there.
     
  18. gstaylorg

    gstaylorg Silver $$ Contributor

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    The bottom line is that if you don't observe a decrease in the elevation required to center on a target at some specified [minimum] distance, you're probably not benefitting in terms of a BC increase and resultant reduction in wind deflection. If such is the case, there may not be a good reason for you to point the bullets at all. Let us know what you find at 1000 yd.
     

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