What is ELR Anyway?

Discussion in 'ELR, Ballistics & Bullets Board' started by 6ShotsOr5?, May 30, 2018.

  1. 6ShotsOr5?

    6ShotsOr5? Gold $$ Contributor

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    Ledd Slinger and boltfluter like this.
  2. mongo chicago

    mongo chicago

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    I pretty much agree. The N.R.A.'s definition of long range is 800, 900, and 1,000 yards, so PRB's definition of extended and extreme ranges seem good. People like to adjust definitions to suit themselves. 350 yards is NOT long range even if that seems to be for them.
     
  3. damoncali

    damoncali Gold $$ Contributor

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    I like the definition Bryan Litz used in one of his books (can't recall which), which was basically that ELR begins where supersonic flight ends.
     
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  4. LA50SHOOTER

    LA50SHOOTER Gold $$ Contributor

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    So, that being said & IF someone was of the same opinion it could be 2500 to 3000+ yards. - Which I'd agree is ELR but I don't agree with the definition at all as stated "that ELR begins where supersonic flight ends". - To me that is "painting" with a pretty wide brush stroke. - And I don't claim to be an ELR Guru by any means.
     
  5. 6ShotsOr5?

    6ShotsOr5? Gold $$ Contributor

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    I can see both sides. It’s hard to run a match using Litz’ definition, but nobody can deny that the right equipment can make a huge difference in difficulty of making high probability hits.

    The reason I don’t really like the transonic range definition is because time of flight and the effect of wind become much greater at the longer ranges. I think that somebody shooting a 168 gr SMK from a 308 at 2600 fps 1000-1100 yds at sea level is going to be able to cope with an 8-12 mph gusty crosswind better than somebody shooting a 300 gr Berger Hybrid from a .338 LM 2700 fps 2000-2200 yds at 6000 ft elevation because the time of flight is going to be almost twice as long for the .338LM, and even though both are at the limit of their transonic range, the longer time of flight is going to cause a lot less error margin due to the wind. This is something Bryan could run his WEZ analysis on. Watch for that in an upcoming volume of Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting!
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  6. Milo 2.0

    Milo 2.0 Gold $$ Contributor

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    Cool concept, but my range, whether ELR or not, ends where the bullets I shoot transition. The only bullet I've shot that did well was a Berger 7mm 175 xld, no longer made.
     
  7. 284winner

    284winner Gold $$ Contributor

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    I like that phrase as well, however that range also varies depending on muzzle velocity and bullet used. With a 338 Lapua that range is well beyond 2k and with a 308 maybe just beyond 1k. It's still a very wide range. I know alot of hunters that say 350 yards IS long range. Everyone has their own long range.
     
  8. wi50

    wi50 Silver $$ Contributor

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    The statement that elr begins where supersonic flight ends is no where close to being true. The very pioneers of the sport weren't shooting cartridges that were supersonic. Think Sharp's, bpcr and the shots made back then and still today.

    It's just that today people believe what they read on the internet and think it's all about money, they need this product or that product or service. You can't change physics.

    Elr isn't something you buy your way into. This product or that software isn't what elr is. Elr is just a lot of work, data collection and application of physics. So don't believe someone's definition, go back a hundred years. Or maybe a few thousand years, they did invent the cross bow to shoot further than the bow. Elr is simply trying to hit a target further than before with what you have available.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  9. LA50SHOOTER

    LA50SHOOTER Gold $$ Contributor

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    How & IF the bullet transitions the transonic cross-over is significant. - Obviously some bullets are quit capable of doing so and still capable of yielding good accuracy. - That is where actual testing comes in. - There was a post by a member that shot 105 gr. Berger VLD Target bullets at 2K and they definitely transitioned the cross-over & yielded 0.72 MOA for 5 shots. - IMO that is ELR for the 6mm Dasher & the 105 gr. Berger VLD Target bullets that were being shot.
     
  10. mongo chicago

    mongo chicago

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    I'll disagree that ELR is where super sonic flight ends. That would be different for every cartridge people shoot. How in the world would you hold a competition? There would have to be different yardage for every shooter entered.
     
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  11. wi50

    wi50 Silver $$ Contributor

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    What happens if I shoot an elr match and my bullet never goes subsonic at any of the ranges for that course of fire? Then is it an elr match? Or what if the cartridge being used at the match isn't supersonic to begin with? If someone shows up to the coveted ko2m with a 45-70 bpcr, then it's not an elr match for that person by this new accepted definition that elr begins where supersonic flight ends.
     
  12. Milo 2.0

    Milo 2.0 Gold $$ Contributor

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    At 3000+ plus yards, that is exactly how you get into the game, you buy your way in. Any rifle, scope, spotting scope, range finder that you may have used to shoot 2100 yards is now about obsolete.
     
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  13. wi50

    wi50 Silver $$ Contributor

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    So tell me whatit costs to shoot 3000 yards then? I mean, I can machine a scope mount for a little time and a few dollars worth of material and tooling. I can range it with a GPS. My rifle I just built from parts I had, material I had and a spent a little money with a good barrel maker. My friend likes this stuff so he made bullets, it gave one of his 100+ employees something to do away from the mundane day to day. So tell me just how much it costs to shoot 3000 yards becsuse so far I have spent less than some guys charge for a simple software program.
     
  14. Milo 2.0

    Milo 2.0 Gold $$ Contributor

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    Cool, a guy with carpenter, plumbing and electrical skills could build his own house on the cheap if it would pass inspection too. Most can't.
    Most of these shoots you get 5 shots, no sighting shots, what is your success ratio?
    Concerning this upcoming 2K benchrest match, one or two guys may do something unreal, and in my opinion, it'll be a good deal. But there's going to be another fraction of the shooting community crying because sighter shots were allowed, aka walking bullets into a target.
    I've put 3 shots into 7" at 2075, my first 2 shots were misses, therefore sighters, then 3 hits, then 3 more misses, which for a lack of a pc term I'll call verifiers.
     
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  15. wi50

    wi50 Silver $$ Contributor

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    Well your points rack up fast in a real elr match for early hits, first round hits giving the most points. So if you can miss a few and hit a few you'll be average. It still doesn't mean it takes any more then time, research, the application of physics. But if you feel that if you spend another $10,000 on equipment and miss your first two shots again than maybe it's time to put the time in and forget about more monetary cost.
     
  16. Milo 2.0

    Milo 2.0 Gold $$ Contributor

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    I guess I'm not going to disagree with you, what you're saying is true, paying your dues will always pay off. But ELR in general is expensive compared to just shooting a 6mm at 1000 yards. I got into ELR in 2011 with a 338 snipetac, cost per rd was 2.75, the cost of the rifle then was 3800, a lot for that period. The action I used was a Lawton Cheytac short, only like 15 made, I had XLR make a chassis, probably the only one in existence. Was not cheap.
    I've never shot an ELR match, but I'm smart enough to figure out if you're drawn to shoot first, you better be damn good because every team is behind you with a spotting scope gathering data. When the first 3 teams first shot is 5 mils right, the light bulb should come on that there is some unforeseen patterns in front of you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
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  17. Bart B.

    Bart B.

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    The crosswind in the first third of target range causes over twice as much drift at target range than the same wind in the last third.

    And wind several feet (yards?) above the LOS is faster than in the LOS. Varies with terrain.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  18. Meangreen

    Meangreen

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    I have heard similar statements from others. I always womder how they are measuring it, as a linear measurement or an angular one
     
  19. Milo 2.0

    Milo 2.0 Gold $$ Contributor

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    I could take you to 4 ranges outside the city I live in and put this theory to rest. To 6-700 yards what you say may hold true, but stretch that in 100 yard increments 5-600 more yards and the first third of your solution has little bearing of the outcome. Wind patterns can be introduced anywhere in the flight path, making a blanket statement isn't correct. Cross a couple of drainages, throw in a wind funneling in from a draw picking up speed as it comes, spells disaster if you're counting on the first third of the distance as your wind call.
     
  20. Bart B.

    Bart B.

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    I agree. I've shot in such conditions. Your example's winds are not the same across the near and far range bands. Several variables are changed

    Mine are the same in two of three bands except for bullet velocity. I changed one variable; where the range band is at.
     

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