What happens to you when you don't have a FFL

Discussion in 'Gun Project Questions & Gunsmithing' started by MDSpencer, Jan 1, 2017.

  1. MDSpencer

    MDSpencer

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  2. Eddie Harren

    Eddie Harren Gold $$ Contributor

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    That's the biggest waste of bandwidth that I have seen in quite a while.
     
  3. savagedasher

    savagedasher Gold $$ Contributor

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  4. Ggmac

    Ggmac

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    Had a similar example down here in west palm bch , Florida. A gunshow regular did 6 yrs in fed pen for selling without licenses . When I first saw him , I was set up at my annual gun show , I thought he had moved , he moved all right , to a small cell , 6 yrs . Needless to say that was my last gun show . Now all transactions are done thru a ffl .
     
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  5. shortgrass

    shortgrass

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    If you're not buy/sell/trading in firearms or modifying/repairing firearms on a commercial basis, you shouldn't need to be FFL. Just selling "parts', as long as it's not the serial numbered part, doesn't require licensing. That's not to say that ITAR might not apply, though. I wonder what the article in the link hasn't reported about this case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  6. Wirelessguy2005

    Wirelessguy2005 Silver $$ Contributor

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    I agree with what shortgrass said. If someone is selling only parts it's not against the law, selling serialized receivers is another story. There has to be more to the story if they arrested the guy.
     
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  7. savagedasher

    savagedasher Gold $$ Contributor

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    I think there is only one . --- what you did was in violation of the law.
    That is when the lawyers win .
    Simple answer it to know the law before you do it .
    Same with ITRA .
    Happy New Year Larry
     
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  8. MDSpencer

    MDSpencer

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    It will be interesting. He has till the 5 or 6 of January. Bet the NRA won't help
     
  9. savagedasher

    savagedasher Gold $$ Contributor

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    NRA normally doesn't help with stupid .
    Happy New Year Larry
     
  10. hogpatrol

    hogpatrol Gold $$ Contributor

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    People bring lower receiver they bought and went through their own back ground check to you. You assemble the uppers, fire control parts, stocks, etc. You are a manufacturer. My bet is this guy was doing just that without a manufacturers license.

    In Revenue Ruling 55
    -
    342 (C.B. 1955
    -
    1, 562), ATF’s predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the
    terms “manufacturer” and “dealer” for the purpose of firearms licensing under the
    Federal Firearms Act,
    the precursor statute to the GCA.
    It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from
    component parts on an individual basis, but could not engage in the business of assembling firearms from
    component parts in quant
    ity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s
    license.
    Since then, ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term “manufacturer” under the
    GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting,
    assembly,
    alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution.
    Such persons must have a manufacturer’s
    license under the GCA, maintain permanent records of manufacture, and submit annual manufacturing
    reports.
    The Revenue Ruling did not ad
    dress whether dealer
    -
    gunsmiths who engage in the business of
    repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on firearms for, or on behalf of
    an importer or manufacturer are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms requ
    iring a
    manufacturer’s license.
     
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  11. savagedasher

    savagedasher Gold $$ Contributor

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    Also I would think that the ATRA. Regulations would apply .
    Happy New Year. Larry
     
  12. shortgrass

    shortgrass

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    Key words here, "for the purpose of sale or distribution". If a customer brings you a receiver that he owns and you use that receiver to assemble a complete firearm, and then return it to the owner (of that particular receiver), the owner is the manufacture. All you did is considered "a gunsmithing task", as the complete firearm is not "for sale or distribution" by you (that did the assembly). It is not manufacturing by ATFE definition. IF YOU own the receiver (a Savage action, Rem. 700 action, a AR15 lower, a Caspian 1911 frame, etc.) and assemble it into a complete firearm and then offer it for sale, you are the manufacture by ATFE definition. ITAR "Guidance" says; 1.a) Occasional assembly of firearms parts and kits that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining ; is not considered manufacturing. Confused yet? The definitions by ATFE and ITAR are completely opposite . Like I said earlier, there's more to this than is stated in the article in the link.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
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  13. savagedasher

    savagedasher Gold $$ Contributor

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    I know if you have a proper ATFE license and pay your ITRA fee and u do the proper paperwork you good to go.
    Anything less is your choice .
    Happy New Year. Larry
     
  14. LarryDScott

    LarryDScott Site $$ Sponsor

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    I have seen the same people at GSs for yrs that are not FFL
    holders. They have several tables w/signs "sale from private collection". Sometimes ATF is in the building. Go figure. LDS
     
  15. Fast14riot

    Fast14riot

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    I wonder if he was taking in and keeping lowers to assemble them? I thought that to leave it with a business they had to have an FFL? Working while you wait is legal.
     
  16. tenring

    tenring

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    I have a non licensed friend who has sold and bought from gun shows for many years. He tells me ATF guys are constantly watching for non licensed dealers who buy a gun from a patron, then turn around and put it up for sale on their table a few minutes later. The seller gets busted when the ATF sees this happen. If he buys a gun he will take it home and sell it at another GS the next week.

    The media calls this "the gun show loophole"
     
  17. shortgrass

    shortgrass

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    The "gun show loop hole" is that anyone, honest citizen to convicted felon, can buy from an unlicensed gun show table renter without a background check, most times no receipt either. Some of those guys bring in more money at the shows than licensed dealers do. And it's all profit , as they don't have the overhead a real business does. Of course they can't buy from a distributer or wholesaler, just used from individuals. They call it their 'hobby', or they're 'collectors. They're on-line at the auction sites, too. They must not be able to make up their minds what they want in their 'collections', because they are buying and selling most every weekend. Any honest citizen should be able to sell his personal property, up until the point he violates the law. Once he becomes "engaged in the business", as he is buying and selling to make a profit, and he is not licensed..........
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017 at 11:32 AM
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  18. LarryDScott

    LarryDScott Site $$ Sponsor

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    You can bet one thing, these unlicensed persons
    who have several tables/guns and sell regularly,
    are not selling at break-even or at a loss. LDS
     

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