"WARNING" 45ACP Cases with an "NT" after Headstamp?

Discussion in 'Reloading Forum (All Calibers)' started by donaldduck, May 20, 2020.

  1. donaldduck

    donaldduck Silver $$ Contributor

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    I began reconditioning a-mess of 45ACP cases, separating small primer pockets from large. Then I came across, the medusa case. I had been putting these in with the small pockets because they looked just like them. All of a sudden I came on a case which had the primer cup bottom still hanging on by a thread. After close inspection, I pulled all the cases back out which had the headstamp "WIN NT". I could see what looked like a collar used when making a Berdan primer pocket into a Boxer pocket. It was not a collar. After I used my super-bifocal glasses, I could see, it was the sides of the primer cup still stuck in the primer pocket. The flaw, when depriming, the cup separates cleanly as if it were cut off. On a few of these cases I could see the irregularity were the primer cup separated. I pulled all these morphadites out to go in the scrap bucket. After doing some searches online, I found 3 different instances from 2007, 2010 & 2011 on loading sites where they thought these "NT" primers stood for non-toxic, no lead. Apparently other headstamps use these, not just WIN. But all have the same problem. People could not get, even small primers to seat in them. I gauged them and found out why. With the sides of the primer cup stuck in the pocket, the hole is to small to fit even a small primer in. I found 2 out of over 50 which did gauge for a tight small primer, but most were not even close, this could be trouble for someone who is able to seat a small primer into the sides of the old cup, maybe? I even reamed them to see if maybe it was some type of military crimp, no way in hell. Everyone who has ever run across these, has tossed them, do to problems trying to fit a small primer back in the case. I also have culled them out and will forever keep an eye out for them. Never to bring them home.
     
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  2. Twicepop

    Twicepop Silver $$ Contributor

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    I've used many cases stamped NT with no problems. I bought a large quantity of mixed head stamp .40 S&W at a gun show and had this same problem with a large amount of CBC brand brass. When sizing/de-capping the bottom of the primer cup would punch out, but the sides stayed in the case leaving it totally unusable. The problems I've had with Winchester, WIN and WCC stamped brass is HUGE flash holes in the .45ACP cases. The flash hole was so large, there was barely enough material in the primer pocket to seat a primer on. A call to Winchester to see if they would replace the faulty brass got no results. They refused to accept responsibility for creating a no quality product and said I needed to take this up with the vendor that sold it. I'm not the only one that has experienced this problem, a while back someone wrote into HANDLOADER magazine with this same issue. The guy that responded suggested that the writer do exactly what I did with them, toss 'em out. Winchester brand has had some severe quality control issues for a long time. Their rifle brass used to be top of the line, and it just plain sucks anymore. I got a sale flyer from Natchez Shooters Supply a couple of days back, some of the Winchester 5.56/223 Rem ammo in there says Lake City production. Do they have an ammo plant at "Lake City" or have farmed it out to another company?
     
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  3. Minshooter

    Minshooter

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    I had a factory sealed bag of 100 Winchester large primer brass. Each piece had a tiny slot in the base, near the rim.
    The very precisely cut slot went completely through the case head. You could look through a primed case and see daylight.
    I asked Winchester about these at last year's NRA Convention. They said they'd "never heard of such a thing", and I should
    send them in. The cost of shipping outweighed the value of the brass, so I smashed them and trashed them.

    Have loaded some CBC .45 brass on a progressive; running average fast speed, had about 10% do the primer separation.
    Depriming -slowly, on a separate press, seemed to work ok. I usually deprime anyway for pin tumbling, so not so bad.
    But, unless you have an automatic primer swager, I suggest running all the CBC through a pocket swager before loading.
    The CBC I had didn't look crimped, but the pockets had almost no bevel, and wouldn't prime smoothly as is.
    Best is probably to just give all your CBC brass to someone you really dislike.
     
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  4. Rsadams

    Rsadams

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    Unfortunately it's not just Winchester pistol brass anymore... Last bag of new Winchester rifle brass I bought I took back , it was not only horrible , it looked like it had been on a concrete floor for weeks then shoveled into bags... It was screwed in every way possible... Now the only Winchester I reload are AA shotgun hull for skeet shooting.... Also unfortunately since they have gone to the HS hulls which are supposed to be the same as the old AA hulls BUT their not , everyone is reloading Remington hulls and getting double the loads per hull.... Soooo they have even screwed up a plastic case basically.... As soon as a run out of AA hulls I will be switching to the remington also and that will effectively put an end to my money going to Winchester for any ammo and that is ALL their fault....

    They stopped making the old AA hulls because people could get so many reloads out of them maybe 25... So they made them were you can't anymore and that will make you buy more.... Well that didn't work Winchester , now nobody wants your shells anymore and remington is getting everyones money... So in the long run how did that scheme to make more money work out for you...?? It's very rare to even find AA hulls left on the skeet range.... That because nobody is using them... Even harder to find remington hulls and that's because people are using them... Whoever made that busness decision should be fired , but instead you know they got a bonus some how....
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  5. Jdne5b

    Jdne5b Gold $$ Contributor

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    This most often happens when people wet tumble brass with primers still in them, or the brass sits outside and gets wet and left to dry slowly. The primer corrodes into the pocket. When someone decaps, the top pops off. Most times its called a ringer. Yes they are a pain, and renders the brass useless except for the scrap bucket. I've had it happen with 9mm and .223 brass and it's not limited specifically to Winchester.
     
  6. riflewoman

    riflewoman Gold $$ Contributor

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    It is called a “ringer” in the ammo re-manufacturing biz. Any and all makes get them. All you can do is toss these cases.
     
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  7. Lefty Trigger

    Lefty Trigger Gold $$ Contributor

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    I have got to the point now in my handgun reloading that I scrap ALL brass that is not what I reload. For me everything is scrap except Remington or Federal, not so much primer issues as it is fitment in my moon clips. I'm a revolver guy...
     
  8. divingin

    divingin

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    NT apparently stands for Non Toxic (I assume they use lead free primers.) Winchester product.

    Rumor has it that the cases are made to different design specs - thicker webs, small primer only (though that may be caliber specific), etc. I would toss it, but if you are going to use it, I'd suggest checking case capacity and weight at the very least.
     
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  9. Hoser

    Hoser

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    Here is a partial ringer...

    [​IMG]
     
  10. ebb

    ebb

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    I had a bunch of brass that had the ringer issue. I evidently didn't get the memo they were junk so I just cut the sides of the primer out with a primer pocket uniforming tool and loaded them up. Next reload used cci primers an had no problems.
     
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  11. jonbearman

    jonbearman I live in new york state,how unfortunate ! Gold $$ Contributor

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    Couldn't agree more once it gets wet for a while outside you should decap before they dry out or this is the result. I have thrown away 5 gallon buckets of ruined brass.
     
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  12. Monte F

    Monte F Silver $$ Contributor

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    I scrap all small primer .45acp, S&B, and crimped cases. Not worth the time or headache.
     
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  13. stork

    stork Silver $$ Contributor

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    In my reloading room, anything with an "NT" or "Amerc" gets thrown in the scrap bucket.
     
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  14. gorji

    gorji

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    Thank you guys for useful info on this issue.
     
  15. donaldduck

    donaldduck Silver $$ Contributor

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    Pretty piss-poor not standing behind a product you manufacture. Maybe if enough hand-loaders bombard their mail boxes with negative review emails, they might start paying attention. Then again, maybe not. We might just be a drop in the bucket, to a narcissistic behavior, who knows? Well I am working up data on 45ACP cases. into my third day now reconditioning just over 2,000 cases by hand. Deprimed, hand-cleaned primer pockets, tumbled clean, gauged primer pockets for size and uniformity, de-burred flash-holes inside the cases, checked flash-hole size, drilled any not to spec and trashed any over .085 in diameter. Realized early on, I would have to use sizing pins to give me an approximate flash-hole diameter. Tumbled clean again and now ready to resize. Die is on it's way. Funny because I don't own a 45ACP pistol. Wish I did. Fun caliber to shoot. Once sized they will be tumbled clean one more time before I put them up for sale. I'll say consistency was better with the SP 45ACP cases I conditioned.
    My data so far has shown, Sellier & Bellot (S&B) had the tightest primer pockets for LP pistol. The pockets needed a bit of force to get them out. I doubt if these pockets will ever expand before case necks begin to split. Their flash-hole were the best of the bunch along with PPU, SIG and IMI. IMI Match impressed me the most, overall high marks on everything. Federal had the largest flash-holes of the bunch (most over .085 dia.), with R-P and Winchester running a close second. There primers popped out rather easily.
    There were a total of 21 manufactures cases. Out of which 4 were military, not including IMI.
    Pistol cases are not held on the same high standard as rifle cases are. Burrs inside the flash-hole were and are common place. Rifle burrs are more like a piece od metal pushed off to the side, where pistol case burrs are more like a small explosion blew the metal back evenly around the hole. I had 100X more flash-holes under sized than over sized.
    Here are some percentages I have compiled so far. These will change, when more cases are added to the equations.
    I'm using a 1-10% instead of 100%.
    Primer pocket uniformity - 98.9% spot-on
    Flash-hole uniformity - 3% spot-on (.080)
    Flash-hole over-sized 1.5% (50% of these were to large and thrown away)
    Flash-hole under-sized 6.5% (.073-.079)
    Lastly lets not forget flash-hole centering in primer pockets. A few where so far off they started to touch the edge of the primer pockets. About 1 in every 150. Around 10 total in 2,000 cases, from different manufacturers.
    Remember this was my unbiased data using 2,000 45ACP cases. These numbers will change, as the amount of cases I condition continues to grow.
    All cases were once fired. All were well under max. trim length.
    I do shoot 10mm, 40S&W and my wife shoots 9mm and 380auto.
    If this has taught me one important lesson, it's that I will continue to only use my hand-loads in my firearms.
    Factory ammo is good for plinking, some target practice or breaking in a barrel, they are just not consistent enough for my taste, when accuracy counts. I'm sure others have and had excellent experiences with certain ammo over the years. in my 40 years of loading, everything follows a trend and it's not always for the better. Faster, faster, faster, more, more, more. The US has become proficient in mass producing arms and ammo. I have seen quality suffer at the demand for more. You can still get quality if you want to pay through the nose for it.
     
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  16. Twicepop

    Twicepop Silver $$ Contributor

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    In my other post I forgot to mention another issue I had with Winchester pistol brass, you post about off center flash holes jogged my memory. I had a bunch of Winchester 9MM brass that at first glance, they looked like the flash holes were off center in them. A quick check revealed that the flash holes were centered in the case, it was the primer pockets that were off center. Not to pick on Winchester, I had some other 9MM cases that I don't recall the name of right now that also had off center primer pockets. I heard sometime back that Winchester/Olin had farmed out their ammunition production to some other company or companies and thought it was just a rumor. If that's true then Winchester is nothing more than a marketing brand anymore. The guns marked Winchester are made by F&N and Miroku, and have been for years.
     
  17. lightman

    lightman

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    I recently resized a medium flat rate box of 40 S&W brass. There were a couple of dozen Federal and Winchester cases with the NT marking on the headstamp. They were considerably harder to resize and appeard to be ringers. Closer examination showed them to have crimped primers. The crimp was much more perfect looking than most other crimps and fooled me into thinking they were ringers. Lightly hitting the mouth of the primer pocket with a deburring tool allowed a primer to be seated. The flash holes appeared to be normal. But with only a couple dozen out of a few thousand I'll probably scrap these.

    I expect thats the same thing with your 45 cases.
     
  18. divingin

    divingin

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    Before I switched to using Starline brass exclusively, I had the same problem to a greater degree. The S&B primer pockets were so tight that I was unable to seat them on my Hornady A&P progressive press. I ended up culling them from my brass bucket and hand priming, but could barely seat them that way, either. If I remember correctly, that problem, and the small primer brass mixed in with large, was what drove me to going to Starline.
     

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