VV N133 a barrel burner ?

Discussion in 'Small Stuff--22s, 20s, and 17s' started by rsbhunter, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. rsbhunter

    rsbhunter

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    169
    Have been using Varget and tac for medium and heavy (50,52,77gr) 223 loads out of a bolt and ar. While I've had good to great results, I'm always willing to chase the best load. Alot of loaders think VV N133 powder with 50-53gr bullets is the ticket for velocity and accuracy in the 50-55gr. But, it is said to be a super hot powder, aka barrel burner.... just looking for input from shooters who use or have tried it in a 223 ....Thanks in advance for any help or info....rsbhunter
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  2. Alps

    Alps

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2014
    Messages:
    2
     
  3. stacy

    stacy 2 TIMOTHY 2 VERUS 15 Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    1,468
    NO MORE THAN VARGET IT SURE MAKE SOME NICE LITTLE GROUPS FOR ME IN SEVERAL CALIBERS
     
    msinc and rebel like this.
  4. rsbhunter

    rsbhunter

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    169
    That's what I'm hearing, I've checked pricing, and it only $4-5 more than varget, so I think I'll drink the kool aid.....rsbhunter
     
  5. velocette

    velocette Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    85
    Don't know about barrel burning, but I sure know I get my best velocity and accuracy using N133 in
    my .222.
    As an aside, I also get my best accuracy with my .308 using VV N150, Velocity is good but not spectacular.
     
  6. rsbhunter

    rsbhunter

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    169
    As great as velocity is, and it is important, I chase accuracy more. I have a muzzleloader that if I'm lucky I get 1800 fps out of, but the fun of shooting it takes priority. I have decided to buy a pound of N133, and have fun doing load development with Berger 52gr varmint bullets....I really appreciate the help and look forward to any other replies and posts....rsbhunter
     
  7. hogpatrol

    hogpatrol Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    5,575
    Every rifle is different but I've settled on VV133 with seven rifles in these cartridges, .223, .20 Practical and .17 Fireball, all with BR4 primers. I'd say it's worth a try.
     
    msinc likes this.
  8. AckleymanII

    AckleymanII Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Messages:
    2,216
    N133 is rough on barrels, 223 with 50g and 223 AI with 40 and 50g...take that to the bank...I have a hawkeye. This powder is hot as hades! However, it is very, very accurate at top end loads. I say that it has a pressure spike in warmer temps, so be prepared for this. If you work up a load at 70*, then go to 85* you maybe piercing primers, especially if the firing pin in your bolt has not been bushed. Seems like the best accuracy node with 133 with the 50-53g bullet is a red line load...watch your temps. I do not load up a bunch of N133 loads at a time, as I have had the only case of cold welding with this powder in humid climates. The powder in the cases was all fonky looking like dried battery acid. Keep the ammo fresh.

    N135 with 55g in the 223 and AI is right at 22/250 velocities.

    What ever you do, use thick cup primers with both of these powders if you are standing on the loads, and both powders are fairly clean burning because they do have 20% DNT in them.

    H335 will give you just almost the same amount of speed and is VERY easy on barrels if you are a high volume shooter. H335 is more temp sensitive than N133.

    Benchmark is about 100 fps slower than N133 in my custom rifles.

    Benchmark has a node around 3475 in 12T barrels with 55g and cci 450's, quite impressive speed with accuracy, my coyote load.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  9. mikecr

    mikecr

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2004
    Messages:
    3,192
    N133, a standard for 6PPC, is among the coolest powders ever made.
    Meanwhile, Varget is among the hottest.
     
    stacy and Laurie like this.
  10. rsbhunter

    rsbhunter

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    169
    This is why I post on this site.....the differing facts and opinions give merit to both sides.....most of these loads will be shot out of a stock barrel, that shoots so good, it takes away my excuse for a new Bartlien, Krieger, or............but, when it goes to the garden as a stake ......a couple guys I shoot with at the club are going in on a powder order, so I am going to buy a pound of N133 for the 50-55gr and N135 for the 69-77gr. Are CCI primers hard? (br4) Again, thank you guy's for the awesome info....rsbhunter
     
  11. Laurie

    Laurie

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,496
    Yes a simple glance at specific energy values backs that up. H. VarGet has a Heat of Explosion index of 4,050 KJ / Kg (K-Joules per kilo) putting it with all but the 'hottest' of double-based powders. It has an identical rating to Viht's N550 'high-energy' grade and is actually marginally higher than that of N560 for instance. N133 by comparison is rated at 3,630 which puts it in the lowest 10 or so ratings on this metric. (Values from QuickLOAD whose compiler obtains them from the manufacturers.) I fired thousands of 52gn match bullets / N133 through 223 in an early Remington 700VS and its throat erosion was tiny with no discernible drop in precision by the time I sold it on.

    Load anything to max, or above-max, pressures and it'll burn barrel throats out.
     
  12. msinc

    msinc

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,524
    Interesting info gentlemen, thanks for posting. The only way for someone to not learn something on this site is to close their mind. I use N140 for 55 grain and up in my 223's and it don't seem hot. That is to say the barrel doesn't seem like it gets any hotter than any other powders I use. It seems to me that the barrel heats up slower and doesn't hold it, but there are other things like barrel alloy that affect that. I get fantastic accuracy and good velocity. I just did start using it in the last 6 months or so, I wouldn't know yet if it cooks the throat or not. Had no idea Varget was a hot powder...then again, I cant get Varget to work for me at all...in anything. I have played with it a lot too.
     
    gunsandgunsmithing likes this.
  13. rsbhunter

    rsbhunter

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    169
    Well, as I've learned, a barrel is a sacrificial item. I have a 300 RUM and a 223 wssm....so I know the results of "having it all" ,except for barrel life. I shoot slow, let barrel cool between shots. I'm also looking at some vv N560 that can be used in my 6.5 creeds , 6.5x284 and I believe my 7mm mag....time will tell...rsbhunter
     
    Mark Lincoln likes this.
  14. drover

    drover

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2007
    Messages:
    334
    I have used over 24# of N-133 in my 223's, I used H335 for years prior to discovering N-133 and N-!33 is certainly less temmperature sensitive than H335.
    If it burns barrels any worse than any other powder I surely have not been able to see it, and I think I would notice it because I go through 3000 or more rounds of 223 loads every summer. Getting barrels too hot is much worse on them than differing powder temps.

    drover
     
    jepp2 and Laurie like this.
  15. rsbhunter

    rsbhunter

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    169
    I know that different guns react differently to different load parameters, I've also read on a barrel makers site that one type of barrel steel loses it throat area faster and the other loses the rifling quicker (stainless/chromemoly) but can't remember which does which...I am going to try the Vihtovitouri powders, I'll take my chances and be happy.....rsbhunter
     
    msinc and hogpatrol like this.
  16. AckleymanII

    AckleymanII Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Messages:
    2,216
    The issue with both 133 and 135 in the 223 is that the very best bug hole accuracy is at 3600 fps with the 50g with N133 and 3500 fps with the N135 using the 55g, both bullets in 12T. My groups have been in the 1's many, many times and made me wonder why no one had ever shot this round in registered competition as it was just as accurate as the 22 pPC's that I shot in competition years ago. The 223 AI's accuracy node with N133 and the 50g is at 3850 and the N135 with the 55g is at 3650 or a tad higher.

    These hot loads explain why these powders are rough on barrels in my experience,but why slow it down when those groups are so small with incredible velocity? I had rather set the barrel back or buy new barrels!
    I did see fire cracking with 133 faster than H335 and 748.

    I have never shot Varget in the 223 or AI since it seems to work it's best with 65g bullets and heavier.

    For anyone that had any of the old AA2015, it will equal the N133 in velocity and accuracy.

    6mm Bore changes the characteristics of the throat erosion of 133.

    For those looking for the most temp sensitive powder for 50-55g bullets, Benchmark is where it is at. If you are looking for the longest barrel life, then H335 is King with Win 748 being a close second in the powders I have shot in the 223. H335 is simply unbelievably great in the 223 AI.

    Hunting partner and I used to shoot 24K-26K rounds a year each, carried a 5 gallon bucket of ammo for each gun on the p. dog hunts, barrels on order all the time.

    Anyone that has shot registered Bench Rest knows that you have to vary your loads from cool to hot weather no matter what powder you are using if you are going to shoot top end accuracy nodes, so choose your compromises carefully related to your shooting circumstances.

    To put my findings in context, The results above are related to high volume shooting. Informal target shooting, slow fire results may be very different. I delegate N133 and N135 loads for special purpose loads only where extremes in speed and Accuracy are needed such as occasional shots on crows or coyote hunting.
     
    msinc and Laurie like this.
  17. Laurie

    Laurie

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,496
    Lovex SO60 is the old pre Western Powders Accurate-2015 and we get it in the UK from Europe. Shooters World has reintroduced these Czech propellants to US shooters, but looking at its website doesn't seem to have an equivalent for this grade as yet. I've always found SO60 a very useful powder in smaller cartridges needing a fairly quick burner and as you say it's an excellent performer. For Americans interested in this grade, it may be worth asking SW if they have any plans to reintroduce it under a new name.
     
    hogpatrol likes this.
  18. Beau

    Beau

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    Barrel life depends upon the heat content of the powder you are using, among other things. Holding everything constant and substituting Varget for N133 should give you better barrel life because N133 is a cooler powder than Varget. Varget is among the hottest.
    Here is a link to a barrel life calculator that accounts for heat content - http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/barrellife2013oct.xls
    If you hover over the heat cell, you'll see a list pop up. Varget is over 4,000, N133 is about 3,600-something.
     
  19. mikecr

    mikecr

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2004
    Messages:
    3,192
    The spreadsheet is right, but I'll remind that it calculates ACCURATE barrel life (overall is too subjective & impossible to predict). Notice other adjustments pressure, typical shot rate, and powder amount (which is dominant). Preloaded in it is competitive 6PPC conditions (using N133). This was sourced from nearly a hundred competitors across many forums (BRC primarily).
    Anyway, using the spreadsheet you could find that a lower amount of Varget could provide better barrel life than a larger amount of N133. A situation possible across a gamut of cartridges & bullets.
     
  20. rsbhunter

    rsbhunter

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    169
    The rifle I'm looking to use the n133 in is my coyote gun, so other than checking accuracy once a year, it may see 10 to 15 shots a year..as I have other rifles and just obtained an XP 100 in 223 that I plan on using as well. Am I correct in using the N 133 for 50-55gr and N135 for 60-77gr bullets ? Some rifles are 1-9 twist , some are 1-8" twist. Thanks again for all the help and information, it always amazes me the people that will share their knowledge so willingly.....Rsbhunter
     

Share This Page