truing remington 700 receivers

Discussion in 'Gun Project Questions & Gunsmithing' started by cmillard, Sep 9, 2017.

  1. 300_whisper

    300_whisper Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    240
    Gents, why is everyone beating up CM? I think he asked an honest question. Maybe it's just not being able to read someone's tone in their message, but it seems somewhat hostile. He clearly enjoys firearms and wanted to help others out can't fault him for that. I'm nowhere near a gunsmith, and I enjoy shooting them more than working on them so I'm just bringing prespective from the other side and could see why CM would want to do something different with firearms.

    Not hating anyone's post either, it's all good advice. I've been burned by crappy smiths (the work provided side) and awesome smiths (business side), so I know being a smith is difficult to manage the business side with the art/craftsmanship side. And the guys who do it well are truely masters at it. But everyone seems hostile towards him. Maybe he needs a mentor, a good gunsmithing program, or a lawyer to set up a limited LLC? Maybe someone can point him in that direction. That just IMHO. Once again not hating on anyone that's just my perception.
     
    Someoldguy and cmillard like this.
  2. 300_whisper

    300_whisper Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    240
    That's a good post, intheshop, thanks for sharing.
     
  3. Alex Wheeler

    Alex Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,575

    I dont read it that way. I think its great if someone wants to get into this stuff. I did. I just want them to know what they are in for and also gave my opinion on the tooling/methods in question. When you ask any tradesman this type of question you will always get similar responses. They always like to see new guys doing good work, and knowing what they are in for. I had quite a few apprentices under me as a mechanic. I made sure they knew the reality of that career right up front so if its not what they expected they could move on to something else asap rather than me blowing smoke and wasting their time. You think this is bad, every time you start at a new flat rate shop the other guys act like your taking food right out of their kids mouth. They treat you like a dog, not uncommon for it to get physical. Just trying to run you off.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
    ROCKJAG4 and 300_whisper like this.
  4. Someoldguy

    Someoldguy

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    169
    I've been mulling this thread over for a couple of days, and by in larger, it sticks in my craw.

    300 Whisper asks, 'Why is everybody beating up on CM?'

    Alex Wheeler replies, " I don't read it that way."

    REALLY.

    Ggmac - 'You can't do it for that.'

    Alex Wheeler - 'There is only ONE way to true an action.'

    rayjay - 'I'm not saying the OP is like this, but I AM saying the guy I would send my stuff to will be VERY well known and respected.'

    shortgrass - 'I've got PLENTY to do without Grandpa's gun . . . '

    Intheshop - 'Heck, I get bored screwing a prechambered Savage barrel in?'

    WoW.

    SO, lets review.

    No one can figure out a way to preform a job efficiently enough to turn a profit if I can't.

    My way is the right way, and everyone else is wrong.

    Installing pre-fit parts is beneath me. I've more challenging jobs I direct my attention to.

    Grandpa was a fool and did not care for his possessions properly. Get this pile of scrap out of here, I've higher aspirations than this.

    Any idiot can install this pre-fab stuff. My time is more valuable than this.

    REALLY?

    Is such an elitist, pompous attitude prerequisite of the title of 'Gunsmith', or is it a position adopted after attaining the label?

    And just WHO bestows the title of 'Gunsmith' upon any of you, anyway?

    It seems the primary technical requirement is that the 'Gunsmith' is able to determine that the firearm works and functions safely.

    And the other aspects are subject to interpretation.

    Screwing parts together of fixing 'Grandpa's gun' is just too boring and mundane, eh?

    Well then, WHY aren't you under-utilized individuals applying yourselves to more worthwhile endeavors?

    Such as curing cancer.
    Aiding in the design of propulsion systems to facilitate travel between galaxies.
    Or simply solving the issue of starvation.
    Heck. Design a new firearm. Best one of John Brownings designs. He's been dead since 1926. What the heck are ya waitin' for?
    Should be a piece of cake for youse guys, eh?

    I'm pretty sure I just became the most hated guy in this area of the forum, if not the entire forum. And I DO NOT CARE. Someone had to say it.

    I'm no Gunsmith.

    WHY would I want to be?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017 at 2:03 AM
  5. Intheshop

    Intheshop

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2016
    Messages:
    222
    Someoldguy.....relax,breathe.There's been some very good advise in this thread.You might be surprised at what some of the members here have accomplished.

    Building the level of equipment that is used by folks on this site isn't for the faint of heart.....there may be a few shortcuts,but by and large we're talking high end craftsmanship performed by some very talented guys.If hobbyist's enjoy tuning and tweaking their rigs,GREAT!Just don't confuse that with what's involved running it on a pro level.My comment stands,building rifles isn't below me.....exact opposite,I'd get a pro to build it because I shoot that well,there I said it.Just not interested in building rifles.....
     
    300_whisper likes this.
  6. Someoldguy

    Someoldguy

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    169

    Hmmmm . . . .


    So you're just 'That Good'.

    Well, alrighty then.

    I'll try to remember the 'relax and breathe' part. Probably about all I've ever accomplished, anyway. Right?

    Pretty important stuff when viewed from my position, eh?

    Like I said, I'm no Gunsmith.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017 at 3:12 AM
    johnfred1965 likes this.
  7. Intheshop

    Intheshop

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2016
    Messages:
    222
    I've got a bow friend(multiple national champ)who practices 4 hrs a day.....he's 70+ years "young".There's only so much time in the day.I'm either standing in front of a brain twisting trig problem designing a fixture for what seems like days....or,perfecting shooting disciplines from field conditions.Ain't nothing wrong with either,but both?Something's got to give?

    Breathe,relax......then yank the trigger.
     
  8. rayjay

    rayjay Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,011
    CM came and requested honest opinions. He got them. People gave him the most precious thing they have [ their time ]. He should be glad to get a variety of opinions and ideas.
     
    boltfluter likes this.
  9. Alex Wheeler

    Alex Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,575
    He asked, and got honest answers. I cant speak for others but, single point truing is not "my way". They were doing it that way before I was born. Its just basic machining. Any type of guided tooling will have some play and flex. I tried to give an explanation of why in my first post if you missed it, rather than just say it dont work. I do believe that some of the best work may come from the skilled hobbyist. They dont have to make money and can take all the time in the world.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017 at 8:10 AM
  10. Larryh128

    Larryh128

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,563
    HOW TRUE!!!! If you love your hobby, keep it as a hobby. I do hobby gunsmithing and constantly keep turning down work from others. Can I do it? Yes, I can but I'm not screwing up my hobby, I did that once already.
     
    Danny1788 likes this.
  11. 300_whisper

    300_whisper Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    240
    Gents, sorry didn't mean to sidetrack anything. There was a lot of good advice given, I just read it the wrong way. I think If someone would steer CM in the right direction on the best way to pursue his goals. Like I said, I'm not a gunsmith, so I can't help him out. Thanks for everyone's time.

    Also, the keep a hobby idea is a good one. Advertise to friends and family to get some work in. I have a buddy who does that. Works out pretty well for him.
     
  12. cmillard

    cmillard

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,245
    Dont worry to all. I can take criticism but i may have been a little sarcastic with at least one of my replies
     
  13. Randfal

    Randfal

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    93
    Cmillard,
    First off, keep your head up. Regardless of what some will tell you, everyone starts out somewhere and everyone has screwed something up at least once in their life.
    I'll throw in a few of my opinions for the record too. Sorry for long reply...

    This site has historically been about true precision and to some of us we take the true part as gospel. You walked into the wrong forum and asked the wrong questions; you implied cheap quick work, done by hand, had a buddy helping you..... Thats like walking into a 70's biker bar and asking out loud for a mocha latte frapicino with stevia. While it's a refreshing drink, you don't ask for it there. Lol.
    For an action to be "true" and "pure" it has to be perfect. This involves precise, rigid setups with precise measuring tools and very careful attention to detail.
    While the Mansion equipment is sound in its theory, it would be near impossible to truly "true" an action by hand. I would never say totally impossible because we've all seen masterpieces built by true craftsmen of old.
    I am guilty of looking at the Manson gear and daydreaming of a quick and cheap way to truing an action. Perhaps the term "improved" action should be used with those tools. At the end of the day I still think lathe work is best. Also, some guys are immediately put off by the use of a tap (I generally am too) but most do not know that there is a whole classification system for taps and taps can be made to cut very accurate pitch diameters if they are held correctly, supported rigidly and operated in precision equipment. Not by hand. I really like Dave Manson reamers and tools and I'm confident he can make some outstanding taps and cutters, just not by hand.
    Guide bushings only help so much. The fact that they are bushings mean there must be tolerances that, once stacked, add up to "not true" runout. If you put dial indicators on the hand tools and watched the amount of flex/push/pull you can apply to the tool while operating it, you would be amazed.

    I'm under the faith that "Trued" means trued. Period. .0005"max tolerances if your gonna put that label on it. And that's not easy.
    I doubt most hack gunsmiths even have the ability to accurately measure an action to gage their work.

    I, like a lot of precision metal smiths, get upset with all the hillbilly hack gunsmiths that post videos of their work on YouTube representing us all. Some put out crap work like their grand pappy Billy Bob and their uncle Bob Billy taught em to. They are giving some gunsmiths bad names and we get defensive over it.

    I'm a believer in hands on training and on the job training under a qualified person. As long as you're being safe, improving and moving forward, great! I'm also not opposed to self taught gunsmiths with a passion for the industry.
    I taught myself to thread bolts on a shop lathe years ago without one single bit of help from anyone. As I evolved, I wanted to know more and get better. I physically read the Machinery Handbook(1968 edition, my new one isn't gonna get read in my lifetime). For those of you that don't know what that book is, get off the friggin Internet and get a copy. In my area, you say pitch diameter and you'll get a blank stare. I'd wager to say I'm the only guy threading true ClassIII threads as a standard. I've raised the bar for some other locals. I know most of them and I'm the only one with thread micrometers, only guy with thread measuring wires that knows how to use them, only guy with go-no-go gages for all the popular gun barrel threads. I'm self taught, so piss off naysayers. I'm not meaning to toot my horn that much. Just saying a lot of guys buy an old junk lathe and call themselves gunsmiths.
    I have more invested in tooling and specialty measuring equipment than most hacks have into their last two Harley's. Don't tell my wife.

    But none of that tooling or any bias schooling will help you one bit if you do not have a passion to accel at what you do with them. Asking around here and other sites, reading and filtering what you read, looking at other's work, listening to customers wants and needs are great ways to gain some knowledge. If you think you want to make a go of improving actions for $50, go for it. Just learn your market and only advertise want you truly can deliver. Whether it's a Trued action or a slightly improved action. Some of us purists have different definitions of a Trued action on this site. Chances are they'll both shoot great.
     
    Riesel, Hal, Ggmac and 2 others like this.
  14. bibsmachine

    bibsmachine Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Got that right Alex!!!
     
  15. GenePoole

    GenePoole

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    60
    Honestly, people tend to throw the "Class 3" spec out there a lot, but have you looked in your Machinery's Handbook for 1-1/16 class 3A and 3B specs? 3A shows a PD from 1.0181 to 1.0219 and a 3B from 1.0219 to 1.0268 so your class 3 go/no-go gauges could theoretically pass with 0.0087 slop; that's gonna piss off most of the Type A guys I deal with were they ever to pull that barrel off and feel that kind of fit. I strive for better.
     
    kendog and carlsbad like this.
  16. Alex Wheeler

    Alex Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,575
    Time to teach them what threads actually do. Loose threads dont hurt anything. Tight threads can.
     
    Danley, kendog and butchlambert like this.
  17. Alex Wheeler

    Alex Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,575
    Won a 1k IBS Nats and holds a world record in the same sport. Not my work, but almost wish it was. One of the best 1k barrels ever.

    threads.jpeg
     
  18. SamLS

    SamLS

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Messages:
    29
    Interesting. We checked the results of the piloted bushing taps and the results of the "professional" single point method out of curiosity. The results would surprise most, and contradict conventional wisdom. the lug abutments and action face are normally parallel as i think most are machined from the same setup with both methods. But the threads are typically tapered from the single point method, I suspect tool deflection and or off axis saddle travel on the lathe ( no machine can be perfect). The thread pitch ie roundness also showed distortion , I suspect from clamping pressure. The axis alignment ie thread axis vs action bore axis favored the piloted hand tap. Excellent results can be had from either method, as well as very poor results. How many gunsmiths actually have the inspection equipment to determine how "true" their truing jobs are? I always chuckle when I see these discussions.
     
    johnfred1965 likes this.
  19. Alex Wheeler

    Alex Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,575
    How did you check these actions out? Did you true either of the actions? Were measurements taken before and after? I do not think you are going to find any machinist that will agree that piloted tooling can match the precision of single point machining. Its pretty easy to check a truing job, no real special tools needed.
     
  20. Randfal

    Randfal

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    93
    Whoops! I just checked in quick. Gotta post more later. Some of us gotta work. Lol.
    I made a mistake. I meant to say/add, "in my area" to my comment about ClassIII threading. My bad.
     

Share This Page