Truing an action- actual accuracy improvement?

[mattri]

If you were to take a standard factory action, in brand "x" and shoot it out of the box, then true it up- what would the actual accuracy difference be?

The obvious answer is "it depends". Every action is different, each one will be a little more or less true, machined a little better or worse.

So if you were to take 100 actions, leave them bone stock, shoot them out of the same theoretical barrel, then take 100 trued actions and repeat- what would the average improvement in accuracy be?

You could poke a million holes in this question but hopefully the main point is getting through.

Thoughts?

 

[jonbearman]

You know this is a really good question and I will follow this thread closely.

 

[1holeaddict]

Great question. I have wondered the same thing for years. I have many outta da box Remmys and Savages that will shoot under 1/2" groups. I Also have a few customs that have been trued up but they do nothing that some of my factory original guns will do. I guess if your shooting in competition and need to subtract every variable out of the equation then im sure it has its benefits.

 

[LHSmith]

Actually, this has been hashed out in many previous posts......one recent one was titled " Blueprinting& Accuracy Improvement.....Any Proof ?"... in the Main message Board last posting was on 10/9/12.....16 pages worth

 

[nosualc]

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3744125.msg35844136#msg35844136

An entertaining read.

-nosualc

 

[mattri]

Wow- that was some read. I tried a search before posting the question, don't know how that didn't come up.

That was a pretty depressing thread, talk about people getting their panties in a wad over a simple question!

The point of this thread was basically the same as that one in your link- what is the actual difference in a trued vs untrued action. Not "is it worth it" or "should I spend the money" just what will the accuracy difference be, as a general rule.

If I knew it was going to spark that kind of overreaction I wouldn't have bothered to post.

 

[watercam]

FWIW. I have or have had four factory actions (Tikka 595, two Winchester push-feed Mod. 70s, Ruger MKII Target)
that were not blueprinted per se. They basically had their lugs lapped and receiver and bolt face cut square. All shot very well out to 1000 yds.. Or so I thought. Sold two and purchased a Barnard action. Had a good gunsmith barrel it properly. Put it into an Eliseo tube gun stock and so far it has proven to outshoot any of my previous rifles by a noticeable amount. How noticeable? More Xs instead of 10s. Pure and simple. Just more consistently accurate.
Is it the stock? A stiffer action? Fluke of a barrel? Had a good couple of days at competition? No idea... None of those things hurt though! While it is true that one can not buy one's way into the winner's circle, one can hedge all the variables one can afford.
Do what you can afford, make sure you have cash for bullets and practice.

 

[22BRGUY]

I don't own a custom action but hope to in the future. The way my head thinks about it is that as soon as a round is ignited in the chamber, it begins to move and is affected by all forces on or not on the firearm. There are some milliseconds of time that the round is going down the barrel where it is affected by various "pressures" on the firearm. IF these "pressures" are all STRAIGHT, the flight path of the bullet will be straight, if not then.... In looking at the benchrest results of target matches, its obvious to me that the custom actions that are manufactured STRAIGHT with great care from the beginning of the manufacturing process are nearly always the winners......because they are STRAIGHT and true. I see the same names in the equipment lists over and over. These people that buy and use these things don't buy and use them because they are pretty (although they are) or because they are the "in thing", they buy them I think because first of all they are straight and true, secondly, because they are smooth etc etc. The results tell us what works the vast majority of time. This is not to take anything away at all from the very skilled shooters because I know the nut behind the butt is also applying forces and pressures that are straight too.
JMHO

 

[BoydAllen]

The short answer is that there are too many variables to be able to know. All that you will end up with is a discussion that pits one fellow's guess against another's. Since I am probably not going to invest in a top grade barrel without having the action trued and the bolt sleeved, I guess that I will never know precisely what I have gained, but based on what I have seen when others have not done enough to an action, there is no doubt in my mind that the investment is a good one.

 

[Buck 89]

Buy the best you can afford, for that is all you can do.

 

[ReedG]

There are a number of things we do in the competitive shooting world that are difficult to put conclusive evidence to. Some of the handloading nuances many of us cling to are difficult to "prove" conclusively.

A friend who shoots our IBS score matches and most of those in the East has the poorest handloading process possible. Never cleans a case, never cleans a primer pocket, hasn't any idea what seating depth or charge weight he uses as they were set up years ago and work fine. Normally, he cleans his rifle barrels at some point during the season, puts them away at the end of the season ridden hard and dirty until the next spring without cleaning them. He wins many matches, holds a record or two, and drives me crazy!

I've had several Savage actions that were trued up by having the receiver face and nut recut, threads touched up, and lug recesses squared. They were then rebarreled with custom barrels, some using the nut and some not. They always shot better. No comparison to the factory set-up.

T&T of an action is just one of those things we do to "make it right". If it doesn't make a difference, then probably half the stuff we do doesn't make a difference either -- but I will still do it because logic tells me a true and square platform is the best place to start.

If a T&T factory action is not better than a stock factory action, then probably a custom action is no better either ... NOT!!!

 

[M14AMU]

In the world of competitive shooting a very important word is listed below:

PSYCHOLOGICAL

For a period of 45 years, starting with a 4 year stint at the USAAMU at Ft. Benning, Ga. and for years afterward I competed in NRA HP. In my endeavor to perform to the utmost of my capability I attempted to remove from speculation all doubts about whether or not a reason for not shooting 10's and X's was my fault or the fault of the rifle that I was shooting. After accomplishing all my goals while competing with the M14 National Match rifle I changed over and competed in the Match Rifle category and my action of choice was a left hand Remington 700 short action, caliber .308 Winchester. Since I know how to use a lathe but did not own one I selected a friend that was a very good rifle-builder and knowing 'Boots' Obermeyer was the best barrel maker in the country...I always shot 'Boot's' barrels and I did EVERYTHING that has been talked about in this thread to ascertain that if I didn't hit the 10 or X ring....it wasn't the fault of the rifle! I wasn't worried about cost; I wanted to win...and I won many events because I BELIEVED in the rifle that I was shooting and I had NO DOUBTS about whether or not it was up to par! MY PROOF was that when I called a shot an X....that's where it came up! And this is why folks that are serious about winning....do what is necessary to make a rifle perform!

MERRY CHRISTMAS gentlemen!!

 

[mattri]

Interesting replies all.

I especially appreciated the refrences to a psychological affect. I am as quilty as anyone of little reloading "tricks" that border on superstition, and competition is certainly a mental game as much as anything.

One thing I find curious is that in this and other threads when this question is asked cost keeps coming up. I guess when someone asks if there is a measurable difference in a trued or untrued action folks take that to mean "is it worth the money?". My question was really more academic than anything. It sounds like there hasn't been any definitive tests done on this. I wish I had the time and recources to make a comprehensive comparison, would love to see the actual data.

Anyway, an interesting subject, thanks again to all for the good information.

 

[xs hedspace]

I put a new scope on a friends rifle. The rifle shot 3/8" groups at 100 yds, with handloads, 6mm Rem, factory varmint barrel. Looked in the bore with my Hawkeye...holy crap, it looked like a dry lake bed, all alligatored near the throat. The bolt had a wear pattern, that told me it was camming from a warped action so much, that there was no side play when locked. The only thing I could figure for the accuracy was the tight bolt when closed, like a Borden Bump from hell. Go figure....meanwhile, my new Rem action needed face, and lug truing, and a bedding block, until the Pac-nor 6mm barrel shot as good as his POS, with factory bedding. Only The Shadow knows, where the evil lurks......