Ruining cases by Annealing

Discussion in 'Reloading Forum (All Calibers)' started by bsekf, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. bsekf

    bsekf

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    Keep hearing about ruining cases by getting the neck too hot. Short of melting the neck, I thought to only way you could ruin a case was by getting the web to hot and annealing it. You could make the neck dead soft but it will work harden. I am of the KISS theory, so I quench to stop heat migration and use a deep socket as a heat sink. I only got a B in metallurgy.

    When mentioning temperature, please use C or F....... there is a difference.

    Bill
     
  2. JRS

    JRS Gold $$ Contributor

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    From Ken Light:

    "Time (as well as temperature) is critical. After too much heat and/or too much time, the brass will be over-annealed. It will be too soft, and the entire case will be affected".
     
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  3. Pawnee Bill

    Pawnee Bill

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    You don't have to worry about that with the AMP annealer.
     
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  4. LarryDScott

    LarryDScott Site $$ Sponsor

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    I'm sure you don't have to worry about the AMP as a tool.
    What you have to be concerned w/are the posted settings that worked for the provider, but not necessarily for your brass. If these settings were factory tested/approved,
    the word perfect would better apply. Been there done that
    and have the brass to prove it. LDS
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  5. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen

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    If all that you are trying to do is to prevent split necks from work hardening then your annealing requirements may be much less than most who anneal. For them, the object is to have uniform bullet seating force that will contribute to lower extreme spreads of velocity (and SDs if you must). Their goal is not so much increased case life as it is better accuracy, particularly at long range where uniformity of velocity is more important. One of the things that can have a major effect on tune is the amount of grip that a case exerts on a bullet that is seated in it. If we soften necks too much the effect will in many cases be detrimental to accuracy, and the firings that would be required to work the neck enough to reharden the neck by work would be expensive in terms of barrel life, component cost, as well as time. What is really called for is something well short of a full annealing of necks, where the brass is changed just enough to provide a more uniform bullet seating force. This has the additional benefit of increasing the consistency of shoulder bump at a given die setting. Bottom line, the amount of time that cases are heated by a given flame is important. For me, not wanting to be bothered by this detail is like not wanting to be bothered by cleaning one's barrel or be precise about powder charge, and the results would be somewhat the same....decreased accuracy.
     
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  6. Just Dave

    Just Dave Gold $$ Contributor

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    From what I've understood,, the magic happens around 750' F
    I use 700'F Tempilaq, inside the neck, and time my Giraud, so that I can see it start to liquefy/ turn clear just as it drops out of machine.
    I let mine fall unto a grate, that is open to air, so no worry about migration, Once heat source is removed, the process reverses instantly.
    But I do check it half way down the case with 350'F Tempilaq, to make sure it isin't when setting up .

    ^ This best describes my understanding of annealing,, just enough to maintain consistent neck tension,
     
  7. Comrade Terry

    Comrade Terry Gold $$ Contributor

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    +1
     
  8. LarryDScott

    LarryDScott Site $$ Sponsor

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    Boyd, my understanding of annealing is: if you dont bring the brass up to the proper temp for the correct time, you only harden the brass more. Is this your finding, or is this internet hype ??? LDS
     
  9. JRS

    JRS Gold $$ Contributor

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    Brass is always made softer when heating, never harder.
     
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  10. LarryDScott

    LarryDScott Site $$ Sponsor

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    If that was the case, it would self-anneal when fired. LDS
     
  11. nmkid

    nmkid Gold $$ Contributor

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    How true. Playing around one day with a Etekcity laser temp. thingy. I fired up the annealer did some cases and was surprised at how fast the temperature drooped on each case
     
  12. JRS

    JRS Gold $$ Contributor

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    Much like the brass being worked in a sizing die, the brass is being worked in the chamber. The chamber isn't nearly hot enough to anneal the case in that short period of time.
     
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  13. swd

    swd Yep that's me Gold $$ Contributor

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    Apparently the few miliseconds of flame time isn't enough to overcome the work hardening of the pressure and chamber/brass dimensions required to make a case chamber and extract.
     
  14. LarryDScott

    LarryDScott Site $$ Sponsor

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    I know that, I was making a funny !!!! Proper annealing to my understanding is correct time and temp. Annealing at to cool a temp only hardens the brass more. That was my original question to Boyd or anyone who has a proven answer.
    I sent 3 cases into AMP for analysis, only to learn they were
    annealed at 3 numbers less than needed. Now if you cant believe AMPs posted settings, who do you believe ???? LDS
     
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  15. JRS

    JRS Gold $$ Contributor

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    Annealing is never going to make the brass harder. It sounds like the brass you sent to AMP was under-annealed (not soft enough).
     
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  16. msinc

    msinc

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    May I suggest you consider believing the one thing that actually counts here...your target?????
     
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  17. Metal God

    Metal God

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    I did some limited testing using the torch and socket method . All these cases have 750* tempilaq inside the necks and 450* just below the shoulders .

    [​IMG]

    I found that you can over anneal in the fact I did not have much bullet hold after over heating the necks well past 750* . I could manually push the bullet deeper into the case with minimal pressure by pushing the tip into my bench . If you single feed or from a mag on a bolt gun that may not be to bad . How ever if using an auto loader , that light bullet hold could result in bullet set back upon chambering . Maybe during recoil with the bigger cartridges .

    Because of that conclusion I've also concluded that it's almost impossible to over heat the head of a case if only heating the neck and shoulder .

    I ran this test by applying 750* temp indicator just below the shoulder and a 450* indicator at the head of the case . This was done on 223 and 308 cases .

    [​IMG]

    As you can see most of the cases did not reach a high enough temperature to melt the 450* tempilaq at the head . All these cases were heated to the point of melting the 750* below the shoulder which resulted in all the necks glowing bright red for seconds ( at least two ) . After this test I concluded that heat migration is not an issue if the heat source is applied correctly to the neck and shoulder area only . When done correctly if your heads heat up enough to ruin the brass your necks were well over 1200* ruining the case anyways .
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  18. LarryDScott

    LarryDScott Site $$ Sponsor

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    I believe this: I never fire a single round when I know in advance that I have an error in reloading.

    No one has answered my question: Does failing to bring the brass
    up to the correct temperature/duration make the brass harder than it was
    before you began the annealing process??????????? LDS
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  19. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen

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    A little annealing story...or two: Some years ago, a friend was running into bump consistency issues with a couple of magnums, a 7MM WSM and a .338 Lapua. As his go to gun consultant I decided that the problem was inconsistency of the factory annealing. (This showed up right away.) Since he had a large budget I suggested one of the then new annealing machines, one that used two torches about 120 degrees apart and that paused the case in the flames, with a speed control to vary the time. Initially we used one case over and over to get to where we wanted to do our first test on cases that we would reload. We painted narrow stripes from shoulder to head with 300,400, and 500 degree tempilaq side by side, set our torches so that the inner flames were about a half inch from the neck, pointed at the middle of the case necks. What we saw was a stairstepping of where the various degrees of tempilaq burned to, with the lowest going lower on the case. Seeing what the relation was, we were able to dispense with the lower degree materials and stick with the 500 degree from that point on. The first time through we were a little conservative (as was proper) and the bump consistency was not as we wanted, so the next test we increased our time a second and it worked, leaving plenty of neck tension for magazine use in hunting rifles. From that point on we would use a scrubbed test case to verify that we were getting 500 degree tempilaq burn down to where we wanted making minor adjustments as needed and then we would run all of our cases without any on them. The system worked fine for what we were doing. We timed for setup with the sweep second hand on my watch. It turned out that when the tempilaq burned down to about where Lapua annealing color is that the time was about right. We did not have the flames directly on the tempilaq. With the machine, once the speed and torches were set, there was no need for further use of the tempilaq for that session.

    Second story: A friend bought a Hornady annealing kit (no longer available) that works very much like a deep socket setup. Since watching hand held torch flame and a timer at the same time can be distracting, I suggested that he buy an inexpensive battery powered metronome for less than $30 and set it to 60 beats per minute to use as an audible timer. It worked just as I hoped it would and was a great help for him. His annealing results were just what he wanted.

    Some years later another friend made a tubular holder that came up to the case shoulder and found that it works very well, spun by a drill. He is too hard headed to buy the metronome and swears that he can count accurately enough. As long as his results are good, who am I to argue.
     
  20. 260 Ravage

    260 Ravage

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    I anneal by the drill and socket and time theory. Dwell time is determined by sight. ( l heat until the neck just turns red then immediately remove from the heat.) When cooled, the case turns to that blueish cool color we see on new Lapua brass. My targets show that I am not doing it wrong. After annealing, my cases resize with ease and neck tension seems very consistent . I use an online metronome which really helps. I have found the largest variable is the difference in heat between different propane bottles .
     
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