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Rifle Tuning Sr/Lr

Tim Singleton

Tim Singleton

Gold $$ Contributor
Load development is always a hot topic on this forum. I've asked a ton of those questions myself. So I wanted to talk about what I've learned that works for me in short range BR to see if it crosses over to long range guys.
I know a lot of shooters on this board compete or have competed in both disciplines.

What I've found works for me when tuning a gun for short range is the bullet seating depth to be the critical factor.
If you don't find the seating depth that works well over a fairly wide powder window your not gonna be happy.
Seems like long range guys put a lot of emphasis on velocity spread and holding a good tight vertical dispersion.

Do you long range guys feel seating depth is the driver in your load?

For short range we tune out horizontal with seating depth and tune out vertical with powder and or a tuner.

Does this hold true for long range?
 
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Tim Singleton said:
load development is always a hot topic on this forum. I've asked a ton of those questions myself. So I wanted to talk about what I've learned that works for me in short range BR to see if it crosses over to long range guys. I know a lot of shooters on this board compete or have competed in both disciplines.

What I've found works for me in finding what shoots or tuning a gun for short range is the bullet seating depth is the critical factor.
If you don't find the seating depth that works well over a fairly wide powder window your not gonna be happy.
Seems like long range guys put a lot of emphasis on velocity spread and holding a good tight vertical dispersion.

Do you long range guys feel seating depth is the driver in your load?

For short range we tune out horizontal with seating depth and tune out vertical with powder and or a tuner.
Does this hold true for long range?
Click to expand...
A tuner does both vertical and horizontal.
I use seating depth for lowering my ES .
Larry
 
What method do some of you long range guys use to find your seating depth?
I'm wondering how close it is to what SR guys do
 
Tim Singleton said:
What method do some of you long range guys use to find your seating depth?
I'm wondering how close it is to what SR guys do
Click to expand...

Tim, im no LR expert but I basically use the way Berger advises people to load the VLD to some extend and its worked for me and allot off other people that I have helped. Ill start my load development with the bullet just touching the lands but not leaving a mark on a seated bullet, start working on the load/speed until I have the speed that I want then ill seat the bullet deeper going away form the lands 0.2mm or about 0.01" at a time. Generally within the first 3 "setting" ill see a pattern or be on the money with one. If Im not happy ill go to around 0.4mm 0.015" at a time and when the group starts looking like something I like Il start working around that seating depth with finer increments, only bullet I really had to do this way with the bigger increments was Bergers 87gr VLD where I found 2 sweet spots around 0.08" and 0.16" away with the 0.16" jump being the more consistent one for me. Im not really all that worried about a 1 caliber size group at 100 or 300y anymore and as soon as I have a group that consistently prints 5 shots in half a inch or so at a 100y ill take it longer to see if the vertical is good at 500y and then 800 or 1000y. If my ES isn't at least below 10fps over 10shots in the initial stages ill start playing with primers and different neck tension after settling on a seating depth. Like allot off other guys said I also believe that seating depth is critical
 
Agree! In my early days of SR load developemen/tuning, I were very much focused on the charge weight, and less on the seating depth. Some days the rifle shot like crazy, and some days like crap. Not a very stable tune at all.

Nowadays, I put my main focus on the seating depth. I start out with a "middle" charge (30.0grs n133 in a ppc), and shoot from tuching the lands to jam -.004". I then verify the seating depth by shooting a lower and a higher charge.

I´m basically following the methodology described in Boyers book, but I´m not shooting the whole ladder at once.
 
Tim Singleton said:
Load development is always a hot topic on this forum. I've asked a ton of those questions myself. So I wanted to talk about what I've learned that works for me in short range BR to see if it crosses over to long range guys.
I know a lot of shooters on this board compete or have competed in both disciplines.

What I've found works for me when tuning a gun for short range is the bullet seating depth to be the critical factor.
If you don't find the seating depth that works well over a fairly wide powder window your not gonna be happy.
Seems like long range guys put a lot of emphasis on velocity spread and holding a good tight vertical dispersion.

Do you long range guys feel seating depth is the driver in your load?

For short range we tune out horizontal with seating depth and tune out vertical with powder and or a tuner.

Does this hold true for long range?
Click to expand...

Yes, seating depth is important but its not the only critical factor. I learned from Erik Cortina that the Holy Trinity of precision reloads are:
  1. Powder, the proper selection and measurement.
  2. Seating depth.
  3. Neck tension.
Two out of three will get you by at mid range but won't work at 1K.The first two are pretty straight forward, neck tension is by far the toughest nut to crack but it is essential to achieving consistent point of impact. At a 1K yards large ES will give you different POI elevation. That is why so many F-Class are fixated on ESs. But those issues are nothing compared to my real nemesis: wind and mirage. IMO at short range they have very little impact. At 1K a 200 grain hybrid going at 2700 fps goes 300 inches (25 feet) above the line of sight. Its a lot windier up there.

Most F-TR rifles are too heavy to spare weight on a tuner. F-Open can but I seldom see one.

Joe
 
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I have one rifle that seating depth makes very little difference. Granted it is an old 03A3 that my dad bought and I learned how to shoot with and a new barrel might change that but it still shoots sub MOA and most of its value is emotional. It has such a long or eroded throat that I can place a 180 grain bullet into the chamber and never touch it with a case.
 
swd said:
Do you find seating depth to stay the same if you change powders?
Click to expand...

They have been very close or the same when I've tested various powders. That said, when changing powders, I use seating depth as a fixed item until I get the charge sorted. Since the two interact, it makes me wonder if I'm simply tuning one to the other.
 
Tim, the best thing I could say to help you is to forget as much as you can about tuning a ppc at 100 yards. Do not worry about tight vertical or es. thats a big mistake alot of guys make. Es is not as important as you would think and vertical is not everything, long range rifles will shoot a flat wide group when they are out of tune just like a ppc can. The nodes for powder, and seating depth are going to be much smaller in the cases you will use for long range. You powder charges will become much more critical. Annealing can work for long range. Shoot some ladders at the range you want to compete. I have seen a lot of rifles tuned at 100 yards like you would a ppc, I would bet money 9 out of 10 times that load wont hold up at 1k. And I dont care if it shoots .1" and has an es of 3.
 
I mainly shoot long range and used to be a lot more anal retentive about things but after wearing out a few barrels I simplified things.

First off I ONLY use Lapua brass. Wouldn't think of building another rifle unless Lapua brass was available. I buy a box of 100, check the brass and if it's good order 500 or 1,000 from the same lot number.

Bullets, same way. I like Lapua Scenars in 6.5, Berger in .308 and .223. Might build a 6mm one of these days probably based on the 6.5 X 47 rather than fiddling around fire forming cases.

Powder. There is no magic powder and I want to limit load development. What works well in a given chambering is common knowledge. Anytime lot number changes check your load. Precise charge weight is critical.

Primers. Powders in a given chambering seem to prefer one primer over another. CCI with H4350 for me, CCI with RL-15, Winchester for .223 pretty much regardless (and not what I expected).

Seating depth. I tend to kiss the lands. Lapua Scenars work well with a one and a half degree leade in the rifling and I don't use a lot of neck tension. Might not in yours, it does in mine.

I mentioned Lapua brass for a reason. I've gone to no turn chambers and have my own reamers specifically for a no turn neck in those chamberings I use.

At 1,000 ES/SD are critical for holding vertical. Single digit is the target. When I built my first fully custom 1,000 yard rifle years ago the first three shots fired went exactly through the same hole. I thought something had gone dreadfully wrong and held off the next shot ruining the group (at 100). The real fight was finding a load that produced suitable ES/SD numbers. Used up half the barrel life on that.

I've had lots of rifles that would print tight groups at 100, factory, factory blueprints, customs. Over a chronograph most those loads do not have the numbers to go to 1,000.

And all of that means exactly nothing if you can't read the conditions, and that takes practice which is the most valuable part of the equation. Plenty of 100 and 200 yard ranges to practice at. 1,000 yard ranges are few and far between so practice and documentation of conditions and results becomes very important. I remember shooting at the Ben Avery for mid-range and watching the wind flags on the right side of the range pointing 90 left and the left pointing 90 right and it was windy. Well, I wasted a few shots figuring that out as the two spotters were not enough but pulled my score back up to middle of the pack. I seldom make it out west and local knowledge is important too. Record everything.
 
I use Tony Boyer's method to tune my shooting. And I look for a seating depth that looks promising under a variation charge weight. My tuning targets are 3 bulls-eyes across and 4 bulls-eyes down for a total of twelve. In early November I shot a tuning target with 43.3, 43.6, and 43.9 grains in the columns, and with .019, .016, 013, and .010 seating off the lands in the rows. At 43.3 grains I got one hole groups at .019 thru .010. Not what I was looking for, but wondering if it was of any significance.
 
brantfredrickson said:
I use Tony Boyer's method to tune my shooting. And I look for a seating depth that looks promising under a variation charge weight. My tuning targets are 3 bulls-eyes across and 4 bulls-eyes down for a total of twelve. In early November I shot a tuning target with 43.3, 43.6, and 43.9 grains in the columns, and with .019, .016, 013, and .010 seating off the lands in the rows. At 43.3 grains I got one hole groups at .019 thru .010. Not what I was looking for, but wondering if it was of any significance.
Click to expand...
I use TB method also. I think most short range guys do or a variation of it
I don't know how well it would work for long rage guys. I would think it would work just as well
 

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