Remington 700 Bolt Timing Issues

Discussion in 'Advanced Gunsmithing & Engineering' started by Rustystud, Jun 16, 2015.

  1. Rustystud

    Rustystud Site $$ Sponsor

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    Over the last twenty years I have had customers send me their Remington 700(s) to have them re-barreled . Some want them trued up some don't and some think they already have had them trued up. There is a difference in a "Trued action and a Trued and Timed action".
    I have found that Many customers and gunsmiths really don't understand the meaning of Truing and Timing actions.The lapping of bolt lugs in most cases just makes the problems worse. Not saying I am an expert, but I personally don't think the current management at Remington understands "bolt timing" either. Since the Shot Show I have had about 25 customers "NEW" Remington 700(s) in my shop and most of them had little or no primary extraction. It seems the newer models are some of the worst cases. I recently went to the Biggest Sporting Goods Chain in America, I looked at every New Remington 700 they (approximately 25 guns) had up at the counter. From .223(s) Standards, and Magnums all in my opinion had "primary extraction issues" The bolt handles were between .052" and .059" clockwise out of timing. I called Remington Corporate three times trying to address the issues. On the third time I spoke with one of their "Gun Smiths", he got an action and I walked him through how "primary extraction" is supposed to work, at least how Mr. Walker (Remington 700 designer) intended them to work. The Remington Gun smith said he took notes and would report to his superiors what I had brought to his attention. I have not heard a word from Remington and don't expect to.
    This week I received four PT&G two piece bolts. Following Dan Armstrong's Instructions to the letter, I Timed the new bolt handles and bolt bodies, then TIG welded them on. With a little filing and clean up they are a much improvement. Now when the bolt handle is lifted from battery and reaches the end of the helical to go into the bolt race the camming angles on the action and bolt handle engage and further the primary extraction until the cocking piece reaches its cocked position..

    Today what was disturbing to me one of these actions had "already been Trued and Timed" by another "Reputable Rifle Smith". He went to the trouble to install a M-16 extractor, and Bush the bolt before re-barreling the rifle. The customer took the rifle back to the original gunsmith who had charged him a large sum of money for his services. The customer was having extraction problems. The original gunsmith refused to look at the rifle and said their was nothing wrong with it.The customer asked me to look at the rifle and see if I could find out what the problems was. With all the custom work that had been done to the bolt the bolt handle exhibited .032" gap between the front of the bolt handle and the trailing edge of the rear bridge. When the bolt handle was lifted from battery to the point the bolt lugs were out of the helix and into the bolt race the primary extraction cam surface completely missed each other by a good .065". The customer paid good money for crappy work. I have taken pictures of before and after for the customers, that I have addressed the "primary Extraction issues.

    If you are going to have and action Trued up and Timed make sure the gunsmith doing your work has a good working understanding of primary extraction. There are some great gun smiths out there who fully understand Primary Extraction. Bolt handles can be silver soldered or TIG welded on, either method will work fine. A properly timed Remington 700 should have between .005" and .010" gap between the handle and the rear bridge. The primary extraction cams should meet at the point the bolt lugs leave the helix and enter the bolt race. This should be one smooth motion with no clicks. When the bolt has reached the end of the extraction cam the cocking piece should have found its home in the notch in the bolt body. If it is timed correctly the cocking piece will pass through the cut in the tang.

    Today was a hell of a day 100+ degrees and I had multiple bolts to weld before I could begin re-barreling actions . Thank goodness my shop has AC. Maybe there is a reason Dan Armstrong lives in Fairbanks, AK.
    It helps sometime to vent a little.
    Nat Lambeth
     
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  2. watercam

    watercam Gold $$ Contributor

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    Current conditions at Remington seam to point to long standing issues of all kinds. QC was surely the first to go.
    Thanks for helping hold the candle of precision riflesmithing where the rest of us can see it!
     
  3. shortgrass

    shortgrass

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    Nice to see this posted on the web. You can show a customer in person and give a detailed explaination "why", but if they've not seen it on the internet 50% think you're just "blowin' smoke".
     
  4. jr600yd

    jr600yd

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    Thanks Rustystud.
    Now I know why my 700 doesn't extract. I thought it was the extractor.
     
  5. Alex Wheeler

    Alex Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

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    Nat,
    Its not just Remington. Many "custom" actions have issues as well. I have had some customs in my hands that make a factory Remington look good. :(
     
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  6. Rustystud

    Rustystud Site $$ Sponsor

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    Here are a couple of Pictures:
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Cigarcop

    Cigarcop Gold $$ Contributor

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    I sent one to Dan just a few months ago that had just about .050 gap....Never came close to touching the ramp.. Lol
     
  8. JRS

    JRS Silver $$ Contributor

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    I suppose that was my unfired action ;D
     
  9. mjtripper

    mjtripper

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    I'm not a gunsmith and I don't even play one on the internet :) Is the first pic the correct setup and the second one wrong?
     
  10. Cigarcop

    Cigarcop Gold $$ Contributor

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    Yep!
     
  11. Rustystud

    Rustystud Site $$ Sponsor

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    If you click on the top picture you will see the bolt handle is lifted up out of battery. The gap between the handle and rear bridge shows the bolt has engaged the front helicals and the location of the primary extraction cam is no where near the counter extraction cam surface on the rear bridge. With further counter clockwise motion of the bolt handle, the cams completely miss each other. With the rearward force of the cocking piece/firing pin spring being the only extraction force with this action. No Mechanical metal on metal caming action.
    It could not be explained any simpler.

    Yes, this action has been fired, and yes, it was brought in to me because of extraction issues. Yes, in this case the bolt has been "worked on" by a "Rifle Builder". He charged the customer for several hundreds of dollars "improving this bolt". His improvements did not address the primary extraction issues most likely just made them worse. The "improvements/bushed bolt" prevents this bolt from being retimed and re-welded. The gun was returned to the "original rifle builder" twice and he told the customer there was no issue with his rifle. Plain and simple the "original rifle builder" does not know what he is doing. He does not understand the fundamentals of how a Remington 700 works.

    I certainly don't need any more work, and I am not in the business to just fix bolt problems. I will fix the problems when I see them on my regular customers work. But there appears to be a epidemic problem with the new actions, especially the ones that have the new short throw bolts. This is not a new problem, it is just getting worse.
    Nat Lambeth
     
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  12. Riesel

    Riesel Gold $$ Contributor

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    About 5 years ago I stumbled upon this you tube video and watched it about 3 times. I had no clue what he was talking about. Since then, I have come to understand what "bolt timing" was all about and now realize when a bolt is not timed. I work around it by not getting too carried away with reloading and I'm not convinced it affects accuracy as long as the bolt lugs engage and engage fully.
    I just pulled a new 700 out of the safe to check. While in battery, .032 gap between bolt (handle) and rear of bridge, about the same between rear of bolt and receiver. I'm going to attempt to attach link to the youtube video and this smith, sorry, I can't remember his name but I think he is with Surgeon, and there are additional links from him that are interesting. Hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes.

    Update, not smart enough to attach link. Might be able to find video by going to youtube and use sgr218
    Riesel
     
  13. Dans40X

    Dans40X Welder

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    Nat,
    As you've heard me mention before-

    People have paid good money to have their actions/bolts/handles MOLESTED by reputable & not so reputable gun-plumbers!

    90's here yesterday in the interior of Alaska & the air conditioner is purring just fine!
     
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  14. Danley

    Danley Danley Precision

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    Dan, what's your current turn around time on a job of this sort?
     
  15. DaveC

    DaveC

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    How does timing on the Savage bolt differ? Which is simpler to get right?
     
  16. Rustystud

    Rustystud Site $$ Sponsor

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    A savage is easier to time. It requires miling the back of the bolt body. A Remington requires removing the bolt handle moving it both forward and counter clock wise and rewelding.
    Nat
     
  17. M14AMU

    M14AMU

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjpWYmLpZA0&list=PL7737FF47AA3DF148
     
  18. ab_bentley

    ab_bentley I fix stuff, sometimes.... Silver $$ Contributor

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    This was one of the, if not the main reason I went through with my savage head conversion on my 40x. The slop in the bolt was so much that you could almost fit a penny between the action and bolt handle. Now that the primary extraction issue has been fixed the action just feels like it would pry a nail out of wood.

    Adam
     
  19. X Ring Accuracy

    X Ring Accuracy Site $$ Sponsor

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    Get ready Dan, temps here dropping fast here so I know yours are. God help you in feb......cant imagine -40
     
  20. Rustystud

    Rustystud Site $$ Sponsor

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    Maybe we will see some action from Remington. I have put them on written and verbal notice about the bolt timing issues. I have received a call from Remington and that acknowledges that they have gotten my notification. They have an corporate obligation to check out the facts. Whether they address the issue is not my call. A conversation with Dave Kiff revealed the back of 1964 Remington 700 rear bridge was .065" further to the right according to the original Remington/Mike Walker blue prints.
    This was a significant finding.
     

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