Reloaded 30-06 won't chamber in Winchester model 70

[Anakin]

UPDATE:
I found the cause of the problem, please see the new thread:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/bent-30-06-brass-correction.3926726/

Thank you so much for all the replies here, I'll pass on the kindness.

Orignial post:
I got my first batch of reloaded 30-06 tested in the range today and had a big issue, although I'm sure the brass is the same size(from the same die setup and within 0.002 difference in all dimensions), some (~30%) rounds are easy to chamber and the rest are extremely difficult.
I put the bolt into half-safe position so that I can close the bolt without cocking the rifle, all rounds can be chambered with ease, but once I put into fire position, the same happened.

I came back and tested the rest of sized brass and found the same issue, between the easy-chambering and hard-chambering brass I found no difference in dimension, if I force the bolt to close, the bolt leaves marks on the rim and cuts some small brass shavings. I absolutely ran out of ideas, please help, Thanks!

Update:
The most puzzling aspect is if I don't cock the rifle the brass just chambers fine, my theory is once the trigger contacts the firing pin assembly and it somehow changes the angle of the bolt, and the head of the brass can't fit in bolt face unless scrape some metal from the rim, since I saw the metal on the rim been pushed forward which indicates the jamming in between the edge of the bolt and the rim.

Another point I just found out is that the brass chambers at some angle, but if I rotate it and chamber again, the problem happens.

I also tried the sizing techniques as suggested by ireload2, sizing the brass slowly multiple times with dwell time at the top of stroke, but the problem persists.

Here is a clip about what I described:

 

[boltfluter]

I got my first batch of reloaded 30-06 tested in the range today and had a big issue, although I'm sure the brass is the same size(from the same die setup and within 0.002 difference in all dimensions), some (~30%) rounds are easy to chamber and the rest are extremely difficult.
I put the bolt into half-safe position so that I can close the bolt without cocking the rifle, all rounds can be chambered with ease, but once I put into fire position, the same happened.

I came back and tested the rest of sized brass and found the same issue, between the easy-chambering and hard-chambering brass I found no difference in dimension, if I force the bolt to close, the bolt leaves marks on the rim and cuts some small brass shavings. I absolutely ran out of ideas, please help, Thanks!

Here is a clip about what I described:

View attachment 1010264 View attachment 1010265

Has this brass been fired in a different rifle?

Paul

 

[ireload2]

Pull the firing pin assy out of the bolt and chamber the brass. If it chambers the problem is in your bolt and safety assy.

If you have some brass that chambers and some that doesn't even with the firing pin assy removed then your resizing technique has some variables.

You can easily produce ammo that varies from head to datum line by simple variations in FL sizing technique.
These variations include
1. Sizing the brass too fast. - slow is better
2. Lack of dwell at the top of the sizing stroke.
Dwell is needed at the top of the stroke. 3 to 4 seconds dwell gives the brass time to creep to a consistent position
3. Single stroke sizing >>> Use multiple strokes to set the shoulder at a consistent position - pull the sized case back about 1/2" and turn it 120 degrees and size it again with dwell. Repeat for a 3rd sizing with dwell.

If any case chambers they should all chamber.
The best way to monitor your sizing dimension from case head to shoulder is to use one of the Hornady or similar tools.

 

[Anakin]

Has this brass been fired in a different rifle?

Paul

No, every brass is once-fired from this 69 model70, I bought three brands ammo, Winchester, PPU and Hornady, Winchester was the easiest to chamber and PPU needs a bit of effort, but all FL sized brass has the same issue. I measured the reloaded ammo and compared with the factory ammo, my COL and headspace are definitely within the spec.

 

[Anakin]

Pull the firing pin assy out of the bolt and chamber the brass. If it chambers the problem is in your bolt and safety assy.

I tried it, and it chambers with no issue, just like in half-safe position. The rifle worked fine the last time I shot factory ammo, and this issue happened today at the very first reloaded round

 

[ireload2]

It sounds like you have a rifle problem and not an ammo problem.
Have you ever had the firing pin out for any reason? Make sure you get it screwed completely in to the back end of the bolt body.
Check out the function of the trigger and the safety to make sure they work ok.
Have you adjusted the trigger in any way?
Then check your extractor to see if it slides back and forth in the bolt head.

I tried it, and it chambers with no issue, just like in half-safe position. The rifle worked fine the last time I shot factory ammo, and this issue happened today at the very first reloaded round

 

[Anakin]

It sounds like you have a rifle problem and not an ammo problem.
Have you ever had the firing pin out for any reason? Make sure you get it screwed completely in to the back end of the bolt body.
Check out the function of the trigger and the safety to make sure they work ok.
Have you adjusted the trigger in any way?
Then check your extractor to see if it slides back and forth in the bolt head.

Thanks for your quick reply, last time I disassembled the bolt for cleaning, but the FP was not removed from the assembly. The trigger and safety works ok, I can't pull trigger in half-safe position and can't rotate bolt in safe. I swapped the factory trigger to Timney and fired some factory ammo once without issue. The extractor moves when I push it and it extract brass just fine.

The most puzzling aspect is if I don't cock the rifle the brass just chambers fine, my theory is once the trigger contacts the FP assembly it somehow changes the angle of the bolt, and the head of the brass can't fit in bolt face unless scrape some metal from the rim, since I saw the metal on the rim been pushed forward which indicates the jamming in between the edge of the bolt and the rim.

Another point I just found out is that the brass chambers at some angle, but if I rotate it and chamber again, the problem happens.

 

[ireload2]

I have seen people have a variety of problems after installing a new trigger. Your sear may be too high and may some how be interfering with closing the bolt.
Check the screw at the front of the trigger housing to see if you have it ran up too high in front forcing the sear and the back of the trigger housing too high.

If you work on it make up some dummy rounds so you do not have an accidental discharge.

If all of your ammo chambers with the bolt body stripped then you have some issue with the rifle and I would say the trigger installation is the problem.
If you can't fix it just put the original M70 back in it until you figure out how to make the Timney work.

Thanks for your quick reply, last time I disassembled the bolt for cleaning, but the FP was not removed from the assembly. The trigger and safety works ok, I can't pull trigger in half-safe position and can't rotate bolt in safe. I swapped the factory trigger to Timney and fired some factory ammo once without issue. The extractor moves when I push it and it extract brass just fine.

The most puzzling aspect is if I don't cock the rifle the brass just chambers fine, my theory is once the trigger contacts the FP assembly it somehow changes the angle of the bolt, and the head of the brass can't fit in bolt face unless scrape some metal from the rim, since I saw the metal on the rim been pushed forward which indicates the jamming in between the edge of the bolt and the rim.

Another point I just found out is that the brass chambers at some angle, but if I rotate it and chamber again, the problem happens.

 

[Anakin]

I have seen people have a variety of problems after installing a new trigger. Your sear may be too high and may some how be interfering with closing the bolt.
Check the screw at the front of the trigger housing to see if you have it ran up too high in front forcing the sear and the back of the trigger housing too high.

If you work on it make up some dummy rounds so you do not have an accidental discharge.

If all of your ammo chambers with the bolt body stripped then you have some issue with the rifle and I would say the trigger installation is the problem.
If you can't fix it just put the original M70 back in it until you figure out how to make the Timney work.

Thanks for you suggestion, I swapped to my factory trigger and still have the issue, I noticed when closing the bolt in fire position the safety sleeve does moves up a little due to the sear underneath, it might change the angle of the whole bolt. The factory tigger is two piece design and there is no adjustment I can make. Maybe I should take it to a gunsmith and check it out

 

[ireload2]

I can not think of anything else. If the stripped bolt feeds then the problem has to be related to the firing pin and safety assy. Are you sure you are screwing the bolt sleeve i far enough. I have a push feed featherweight and I have never had any problems like that.

Thanks for you suggestion, I swapped to my factory trigger and still have the issue, I noticed when closing the bolt in fire position the safety sleeve does moves up a little due to the sear underneath, it might change the angle of the whole bolt. The factory tigger is two piece design and there is no adjustment I can make. Maybe I should take it to a gunsmith and check it out

 

[Anakin]

I can not think of anything else. If the stripped bolt feeds then the problem has to be related to the firing pin and safety assy. Are you sure you are screwing the bolt sleeve i far enough. I have a push feed featherweight and I have never had any problems like that.

I turn the sleeve in until the lock engages the groove on the bolt, I don't think I can screw it further, but I'll double check once I'm back home. Thanks!

 

[snert]

Do all this testing with a dummy round, not loaded rounds!!!

 

[Ggmac]

If you changed the trigger and this started happening , I would suggest strongly it's time to have this rifle checked by a gunsmith .
What happens when you insert the cartridge in the chamber and close ?
Try live ammo ONLY AT THE RANGE ,WHEN HOT AND KEEP POINTED IN SAFE DIRECTION ?

 

[Ggmac]

I just watched your clip , when you extract ,YOU ARE dinging the case mouth !!!!!!

 

[Anakin]

Do all this testing with a dummy round, not loaded rounds!!!

I know, I use sized unprimed brass

 

[Anakin]

If you changed the trigger and this started happening , I would suggest strongly it's time to have this rifle checked by a gunsmith .
What happens when you insert the cartridge in the chamber and close ?
Try live ammo ONLY AT THE RANGE ,WHEN HOT AND KEEP POINTED IN SAFE DIRECTION ?

It will still do the same, the brass will get into the chamber but the bolt won't close

 

[Ggmac]

After you chamber an empty case , as in the video , then extract it and try to rechamber and it's difficult , check your case mouth for a flat spot where it was rubbing on the receiver while being extracted . This will cause a fired or chambered /extracted case being difficult to rechamber .

 

[Anakin]

After you chamber an empty case , as in the video , then extract it and try to rechamber and it's difficult , check your case mouth for a flat spot where it was rubbing on the receiver while being extracted . This will cause a fired or chambered /extracted case being difficult to rechamber .

I checked the mouth and there is no mark. The chambering difficulty happens when I turn the bolt, most of the brass/ammo is already in the chamber. The same issue happened to most rounds when I shot in the range yesterday, then I tested on brass last night. All metal-to-metal rubbing/scraping happens at the edge of the bolt face and the brass rim

 

[Ggmac]

Have you used a magic marker on the case to see rub marks . Of course the back is going to rub .
I think you need to have a mentor to go over reloading basics , headspace , chamber design , taper , leade , etc .
The small brass particles you point to are pretty normal when you don't push the shoulders back .

 

[SheepDog]

The problem you are having does not seem to be related to your loaded rounds.