NRA new 2019 E Target 7 second delay rule?

Discussion in 'Competition Forum (All Calibers)' started by GSS, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. Steve Blair

    Steve Blair

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    How could a seven second delay cause crossfire problems? I've waited much longer for pit service and not become confused.
     
  2. Bindi2

    Bindi2

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    With a delay you can not tell which shot is the crossfire. I know the manual target rules say you get the highest value. This can and has caused a change in the winners standing. The rule should be changed to both shots cancelled optional sighter carryon. The cross firer a miss carry on.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  3. Steve Blair

    Steve Blair

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    Ah, that makes more sense. There is no problem with delay, you just don't like the rules. There is a process for that. Good luck.
     
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  4. Bindi2

    Bindi2

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    I don't like the delay either it just highlights another issue which needs fixing as well.
     
  5. foxguy

    foxguy Gold $$ Contributor

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    We had a similar problem with delay of the shot reporting when we had 20 shooters on the line, and a 2nd line viewing the match via their tablets( 40 shooters/ tablets viewing match) the match director contacted Adam and found the Access Hub that was being used was engineered for appx 25 users-thus the slow response times to shooters. The good news is that there is an Access Hub available for clubs having more than 25 shooters/users on the system at time. The Newer Access Hub was available last December and if your club is experiencing slow/delayed shot reporting and you have more than 25 users on the system you may want to have the Match Director contact Adam and discuss the slow/delayed shot reporting.

    I too enjoy overall shooting on the ShotMarker System and wish all shooters and clubs ease of use and success when using the Shotmarker system. I'm fairly new to F-Class shooting and I find the 7 second rule to be about right for my shooting when the system isn't experiencing delayed reporting.
     
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  6. BobLor

    BobLor

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    And the updated ShotMarker Access Points that can handle 250 devices
    arrived today, so we should not experience the unintentional delay we were experiencing at the Sept. match. We should be good to go for the 2020 season. Adam is amazing on supporting the ShotMarker. I am also amazed the access point only designed for 25 devices did as well as it did handling at least 43 devices. As Match Director I had 3 tablets on, one for myself and two extras on and ready to hand out to shooters / score keepers who may have their tablet go down and some of the competitors were running tablets and smart phones as a back up on their firing point, so I really do not know how many devices were actually operating on the line. But more than 40.
    Bob L
     
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  7. Immike

    Immike Gold $$ Contributor

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    Even with the ETs there is still a human factor but I’ve suffered a relentless crossfire in a windy IBS match that forced me to reshoot the target several times. That’s not fair either. Just saying that... that destroyed the rhythm of the shooter. All things considered I believe it is best “as is” from my experience with this and let the innocent shooter carry on. I’m firm on this and making changes to time tested rules needs to be thought out more.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  8. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Gold $$ Contributor

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    If I understand your comment correctly, rules that differ from HP and thus are specific to F-Class are defined in Section 22.

    Except in this case, the pertinent Rule outlining a 7-second delay that is specific to F-Class is listed with other E-target rules in the HP section, NOT in Section 22 with the other rules specific only to F-Class. This is confusing and inconsistent with the notion of segregating F-Class-specific rules to Section 22 Implementing a mandatory 7-second delay specific to F-Class only and not HP makes little sense to me, but that's an actual rule change (i.e. not a literary clarification) and is clearly well above my pay grade.

    I would suggest the following minor changes for clarity:

    From 6) in the updated rules file...I would move the following statement regarding an F-Class-specific 7-second delay from Section 10.17 to a specific E-target reference in the F-Class Section 22:

    (h) In F-Class competition, a seven (7) second delay in the presentation of the last shot fired on the firing line monitor shall be used. When used in F-Class competition and whenever possible and practicable, the system should be programmed so as to display the words “Waiting” during the 7-second delay and to show a digital count-down of the seconds, and where additional shots arrive at the target during the “Waiting” period, those shots should be displayed as well as the initial shot. The purpose of this procedure is to assist with the shot value determinations in cross-fire situations. Any shots fired during the mandatory 7-second delay are record shots and shall be scored as misses.

    I would also consider replacing the above Section with a statement similar to what was written in your response above, i.e. for Section 10.17.1, section (h):

    At their discretion, Match Directors may use a 7-second delay for all shooters.

    I believe these minor changes would make it abundantly clear that the 7-second delay is mandatory only for F-Class.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
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  9. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Gold $$ Contributor

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    Can you challenge an E Target score like you can with a human target puller? And if you can, and it's determined that the E Target was out of calibration, what is the recourse? How does it affect all the previous shots for record, not only for the current shooter, but subsequent relays that may have fired on the uncalibrated E Target?
     
  10. sdean

    sdean Gold $$ Contributor

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    Where I shoot no provisions to challenge a shot. They go over the rules beforehand. If you hit outside the scoring rings it’s a 0. If you miss the whole target you get another shot. Go figure. Needless to say in 4 years of competition at 600 the only time I hit outside of the scoring rings was on an Etarget. No recourse the thing said I hit the very top of target. Other than that shot, dropped 1 point that relay. Doesn’t seem like much until it happens to you with no hole in the target for proof. Such is life I still hate the hot pits down south.
     
  11. RDA72927

    RDA72927

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    There's really nothing to challenge. The view screen is just showing a representation of the hole. The E-target knows where the lines are and the center of the shot. Making the screen larger will not show weather it is touching the line or not. So it's either your believe in the tech or you don't.

    Robert
     
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  12. Jennb

    Jennb

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    Actually you can tell. Velocities may be noticeably different or the angle of the shot is different. If score keepers are doing their job they would know if their shooter fired and did not record also.
     
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  13. FatBoy

    FatBoy

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    JennB is spot on. If you have a wild shot on target check the MV. If it's like 5000fps, clearly there is an error. If its within 100fps, it sucks but stuff happens. On the rare occasion that I have one way off MV is the first thing I look for, then wind changes. I know wind/mirage should be first, but this is part of the downside of e-targets. It allows those of us who are undisciplined slobs to be who we are,,,, spotter chasers.
     
  14. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Gold $$ Contributor

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    I have not shot on these yet Robert so I’m not making any value judgements here, just asking questions for the sake of understanding.

    Since these have been around for a while, I’m sure those of you that have lots of experience with these systems have validated their reliability over time. So, how do you calibrate the targets and determine that they remain calibrated over a period of time? Is that even an issue?

    PS, I’m looking forward to trying them. Even considering buying one myself
     
  15. davidjoe

    davidjoe Skunkworks Gold $$ Contributor

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    Above ^ I have seen the value challenged where the screen depiction of the shot doesn’t match the score, it’s possible. On calibration, if you wanted to explore the inherent accuracy of an e-target, cross the wires while practicing so as to remove a “dimension” and produce shots arranged in a “line” and see how much deviation exists in the line of represented shots. We accidentally did this in a match. The line, in that case horizontal, wasn’t perfect but neither was it very bad. Maybe off by more than the thickness of the white line, though, but also angling by a few degrees from horizontal, which maybe indicates that board placement shifts or that it is extremely difficult to make microphones 100% identical to each other.
     
  16. davek

    davek

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    simple Steve, when the target is in the pits it can not receive shots, so after you shoot and this delay stuff starts for 7 seconds while your target is still up receiving shots, whose shots are they?. now during the 2 years at perry shooting on the electronic targets I have had bad shots come up that I can't ……. say x x 6 x x .. well, im not the only one with that problem. These targets are good but not good enough yet for primetime.
     
  17. Steve Blair

    Steve Blair

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    I'm not interested in electronic targets, regardless.
     

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