Nirvana: Lilja 457 and Tenex lot testing

Discussion in 'Rimfire & Smallbore' started by garandman, Aug 29, 2019.

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  1. Hi-NV Shooter

    Hi-NV Shooter

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    Ok, maybe I misunderstood but did he really say changing headspace will change engraving depth on the bullet?

    Lee
     
  2. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    No. He did not. And I never said that he did.

    He said adding spacers increases headspace, and that tunes accuracy. In the CZ platform specifically.
     
  3. Hi-NV Shooter

    Hi-NV Shooter

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    Ok I must be misunderstanding the statement of managing cartridge kength you made in reference to Carson Lil
    Ok I must be misunderstanding your statement as I thought you said managing cartridge length pertaining to engraving.
    quote-
    And as the guy at Lilja told me… accuracy in rim fire also comes from the overall cartridge length. Now we can't change that because we don't hand load 22 rim fire. How you manage cartridge length in 22 rim fire is through head space… Lilja uses different spacers btwn the receiver and the barrel to tweak the head space. You test 22 rim fire to find out what manufactured cartridge length and powder charge works best with the head space you have set in the gun. This is not my personal opinion. This is what Carson Lilja, the manufacturer of one of the most accurate barrels in the world, told me about how you find accuracy from a 22 rim fire. People are free to choose to disagree and disbelieve him if they want to. I choose to take what he said as highly likely. I tested his explanation, and it worked... for me.

    Thanks,
    Lee
     
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  4. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    What I meant by " managing cartridge length " is not changing it but dealing with the cartridge length as it comes from the manufacturer.

    When reloading centerfire, we can adjust seating depth. We can't do that With rim fire. So you add or remove spacers to the 455 / 457 platform to deal with the rim fire cartridge length as it comes from the manufacturer to maximize accuracy for that round.

    Are you familiar with the 455/457 platform well enough to understand how a spacer is placed into the receiver in between it and the barrel face?
     
  5. Hi-NV Shooter

    Hi-NV Shooter

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    I am not familiar with the 455/457 however what you are saying about seating depth as it pertains to headspace doesn't make sense as you are altering the gap(headspace) before the chamber and not after. seating depth will effect engraving off the lands of the barrel.
    I have some experience with .22lr OAL as my barrels have the Nevius chamber which gives 0.030 engraving from the Ogive. again shimming the barrel away from the breech face only alters the gap between the bolt face and head of the cartridge.
    if a .22LR is lets say 0.725 in length you can not change that length as it fits in the chamber, by increasing or decreasing headspace. Ogive measuring example.JPG
    Ogive measuring example - Copy.JPG G-3 mk tool - Copy.jpg

    Lee
     
  6. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    Sooo....NOT AT ALL familar with the 455 /457...but telling me how it works when I'm on my second CZ build, and 3rd 455 / 457 rifle..... meanwhile.... claiming superior knowledge over Carson Lilja.

    Friend... that is SOOOO "internet" of you.


    You have a nice day. Really. I mean that. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  7. Tim s

    Tim s

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    The vid also mentions 50-60 rounds to “re season” the bore.
    Tell our keyboard champion here how many yours take after a properly cleaned bore, mine are good to go after 2-3.

    Lilja’s can be quite good, I won the IR 50 sporter nationals A few years ago with a Lilja and my best current sporter shoots a std bore Lilja 6 groover, has shot some high X count 250’s this year.
    Now I don’t think, in my life, I have ever posted a single time about anything I have ever shot, but good lord, this guy is like talking to a f...ing post.
    They are, however, IMHO, the last place you want to chamber one.

    Lastly, today we had our 2 club matches both CF & RF and paraphrased our little boreguide thread.
    Now this group includes CF USA world team members and more than one IR50/50 gold level hall of fame members.
    You ever see 20 shooters all standing there with their mouths open in disbelief ???:eek::eek::eek:
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  8. Tim s

    Tim s

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    Lee, what he probably heard, completely misunderstood(go figure) and also has completely wrong with his lot selection completely dependent on FPS.
    Now if you ever stop over at the WLM channel you may remember when he was carrying on about hoping ELEY would publish OAL (base to forward edge of driveband) on the box.
    The reason is that with some barrel configurations (usually MI) and chambers, it can be critical, particularly how fast the throats foul and suffer accuracy degradation.
    Some MI barrels are cut with short chambers and if you have a good, but long lot.....you ‘re screwed. Some of these barrels require very specific chamber to get max potential
    I have been pretty lucky so far as most of my chambers handle long/short pretty well......lots of barrels will not.
    Sorry to carry on, long winded here but hopefully you found it useful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  9. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    I never said lot selection was entirely dependent on FPS. I said quite the opposite.

    Why do you INSIST on insulting me ( "he misunderstood...go figure" ) ????

    If you want to say that I'm an idiot....MAN UP and say it out loud.

    You already misquoted me and distorted what I said. Might as well not be coy about insulting me with personal, ad hominem attacks.

    SMH
     
  10. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    Its "potential."

    And yes... that's exactly what the spacers in the Lilja 455 / 457 barrel do.... set up the chamber that will maximize ammo "potential" by creating additional headspace. That's precisely what Carson Lilja said.

    Are you at all familiar with the 455 / 457? Did you see where I explained all this before? Do I need to explain *yet again* how this works?
     
  11. Tim s

    Tim s

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    Of which,generally, require a specific barrel configuration, which you do not have,
    Including a precise match chamber, which.......well......you do not have.

    Also, you know what “ marketing “ is ? That is when you have spacers required to fit a mass produced gun with less than consistent headspace so it goes “bang” every time and convincing somebody with zero experience that they are accuracy enhancements.....now that there is some marketing.
    The real solution is to have a proper gunsmith fit a barrel with a proper match chamber.

    P.S. did you not state in post #1 your gun likes best 1060 velocity, and thus how you choose?? That there is FPS.
    OK I think I am done with this thread now because, “ you can lead a horse to water, but a few of’em still die of thirst”.
    Luck with the new rifle.....buy a boreguide.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  12. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    My targets (posted above) say I've got what I need for serious, match winning accuracy.

    I listen to them FAR more than to some stranger insulting and misquoting me on the internet.
     
  13. JimT

    JimT “I don’t even own a piece of camo!”-Kenny Jarrett Gold $$ Contributor

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    Generally, if someone says this about you,

    “but good lord, this guy is like talking to a f...ing post.”

    he is calling you an idiot.

    Just wanted to point that out for you.
     
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  14. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    Thanx for the help.

    People who use insults aren't worth listening to. Insults mean they usually don't have facts or reason on their side, so they lower themselves to use insults and profanity. Cuz they are internet tuff guys. They are sure they know more than everybody - even actual manufacturers who are highly and widely well regared in the industry. And they live to "win" on the internet.

    Just wanted to point that out for you (and them) :) and be helpful also.
     
  15. Hi-NV Shooter

    Hi-NV Shooter

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    I don't know about CZ because they could never shoot to the levels I want regardless of who's barrel were on them
    as for Mr Lilja he is a great salesman for sure
    But I will ask this last question and be done
    Why are you wasting your time on a CZ since you now have a Vudoo

    Lee
     
  16. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    I like a challenge. Its a game to me... tweaking and playing and maxxing out a guns potential. I got this CZ doing what a lot of people said wasnt possible... beating Anschutzes, Coopers, etc... winning matches. CZ project started months ago. Id call it a success.

    Now... on to the Vudoo. I may sell the CZ. Not sure.
     
  17. Hi-NV Shooter

    Hi-NV Shooter

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    Tim,
    You know Kevin Nevius, so you also know the development work he did for Lapua ammo. I use his chamber specs. only and have found leade build up to be very minimal and have pushed round count to as high as 200 rds. before running a patch or two when at the range.
    not sure if it makes any difference but I use BM 3-grooves

    Lee
     
  18. Tim s

    Tim s

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    Yep, Kev is first class, great champion.
    We’ve had some conversations about chambers and, actually all last year I ran Lapua in our matches and a couple championships.
    It did not seem to be barrel specific since I ran it in a Lilja 6, Hart, ratchet, and a Muller 4 groove.
    For reasons I’m not entirely sure of it was evident that it seemed to load up the throats less than ELEY. I am lucky since my guns have been chambered for ELEY but the chambers Gordon Eck puts in seem to handle Lapua pretty good.
     
  19. flatlander

    flatlander

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    Lee, I sent one of my V-22s (Krieger bbl that I fitted & chambered) out to the Lapua Test Center in Mesa, Az. last winter, and Daniel didn't find any Midas+ that shot as well as lot#601117 Center-X. Couldn't help but notice that your 20-shot group pic included the last four digits of the Center-X you shot the group with... I bought two cases of that lot from Capstone, and thankfully, it shoots just as good out of the Bartlein on my 2nd V-22 as it does out of the Krieger - and the Krieger on a 40XB repeater. Maybe Lapua was short on the number of lots of Midas+ on hand when my bbl'd action was there, but it doesn't hurt my feelings that my rifles liked $10/box ammo better than $14/box stuff...lol
     
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  20. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    I am running Midas + in my V22 as it shoots better than the Center x. Im sub 0.3" at 50 yd. I am curious what you are getting.
     
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