newly released BERGER 184 Hybrid (.284)... preliminary load data and results compared to 180 Hybrid

Discussion in 'Big Stuff -- 6.5mm, 7mm, 30 Cal' started by MontanaCreedmoor, Jul 14, 2018.

  1. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    A lot of folks have been waiting patiently for the new Berger 7mm 184 grain Hybrid.

    I got a few thousand come in recently and started (not finished) some load investigation. I thought I would share some information on what I am seeing ... in the hopes that it expedites other’s load development as well.

    I typically shoot 300-600 and 1,000 yard F class

    My Old load:
    I shoot a straight 284 Win with 180 grain Berger Hybrids from a 32” Kreiger
    My node was at a velocity of 2,820 FPS
    I have been using 4831sc powder (occasionally use the H4350 powder also).
    Typical group size on this rifle is about 0.25” to 0.30” MOA
    Optimal seating was 10 thous. Off the lands.


    NEW BERGERS:
    I just got the 184 Hybrid F class bullets and wanted to see how these performed compared to the old standby of the .. 180 Hybrid BERGERs.

    First Outing:
    Have not been able to have enough time to do a proper load development and check out a spread of velocities and seating depths..... simply loaded similar load and get a starting point on velocity and performance....

    First load..... Loaded the same powder load normally used on the 180 Berger Hybrid.

    Results:
    53.6 gr H4381sc and 180 Berger Hybrid: 2820 fps and 0.28” group
    53.6 gr H4381sc and 184 Berger Hybrid: 2795 fps and 0.15” group

    Bottom line in first Outing:
    New Berger 184 Hybrids and running 25 fps slower than 180 Hybrid .... with identical load as used in same rifle with the Berger 180 Hybrids.

    Grouping looks attractive.

    Will conduct load tests next to determine optimal load, velocity node(s), and optimal seating depths.



    3 shot group at 100 yards with new Berger 184:

    79976E42-1A45-43ED-9C01-2F4690B1667E.jpeg




    3 shot group at 100 yards with identical load and original/old 180 gr Berger Hybrids:
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. Rogmay

    Rogmay Gold $$ Contributor

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    Montanacreedmoor, what twist are you running? Please keep posting, I have a new 284 in the works as well, thanks.
     
  3. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    I run a 4 groove 8.5:1 twist. Some folks shooting .284 shoot with an 8.75 or 9 twist .... I like my 8.5 twist. I also believe the 8.5 twist will do a better job stabilizing the slightly heavier 184 grain Bergers ... and will be a good match for them. With my 8.5 twist, I’ve Never had too much torque, nor have I had excessive spin and bullet disintegration.... but I’m also only running Berger Hybrids. I also seem to typically find my best accuracy nodes below 2,900 fps .... so I try not to run them too hard. I’m hunting accuracy .... not speed. Currently spinning up 2 more .284 barrels in 8.5 twist.
     
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  4. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    Original load and group at 300 yards with the 180 grain hybrids:


    792F06AF-AC88-4C36-924C-F0AB5F69680A.jpeg
     
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  5. Tahoe Shark

    Tahoe Shark Gold $$ Contributor

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    Are you measuring vertical only at 100 yds? I measure the groups edge to edge and subtract the caliber. I can’t see that these groups are .15” & .28” as indicated on the targets. Can you provide more info?
     
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  6. Willow

    Willow

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    Was this 184 load also .010 off the lands? Looks promising...
     
  7. Bigd7378

    Bigd7378

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    What is the length of the 184? Also bearing surface, could you post a picture of the 180 next to a 184. I just ordered my 100 to try in my 7WSM
     
  8. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    78C5D3EF-72CA-4234-8333-D0E97A34C3E3.jpeg Photos posted on side by side comparison of the 7mm BERGER 180 hybrid (left) and BERGER 184 hybrid (right).

    Total overall length:
    180 hybrid: 1.519”
    184 Hybrid: 1.572”. So 53 Thous. longer


    Photo posted with some comparisons.....

    Let me know how everybody’s loading goes.... and more importantly ..... how those groups and recipes and “jumps” look!
     
  9. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    Planning/Hoping to get some load development worked up this weekend on the BERGER 184 hybrids ..... various loads with powder charge ranges ... and seating depth ranges.
     
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  10. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    009628C8-9F06-498F-9D0A-C49187723EAC.png 96A0591E-2A92-4D34-943E-7BA1721C2997.png Update on final 100 yard testing with the 184 BERGER hybrids.


    Rifle: .284 WIN with 32” barrel


    The best load was found at a velocity of 2,790 FPS (53.4 Gr H4831sc) which was about 30 FPS slower than the best original load with the BERGER 180 Hybrids.

    3 shot Groups at 53.4 grains H4831 yielded group size of 0.164” (1 ragged hole).


    Methodology: classic matrix load development with varying load charges (low to High) and varying seating depths (10 th to 40th). Used both H4831sc and H4350 powders. Both powders giving similar results (with different charge loads of course to yield specific velocities). All with CCI2 BR2 primers.

    Photo below showing the shot group results for the 53.4 Grain load(s) of H4831sc only..... from 10 th 40 thousands jump (10 th jump on top and 40th jump below). Average velocity was running 2,790 FPS. 15 thousand group opened up (likely operator error !!!!! ).

    All seating depths at this load/charge seemed to work fairly well at this velocity .... other charge loads delivered some reasonable group averages results also .. but not as consistent across all seating depths. Close up of the 40 thousand jump group shown below. (seems to be a decent near optimal load) ......
    Looks like this guy is a good load to run with .....
    The 184 Hybrids seemed to like both 10 thousand jump as well as 40 thousand jump. Had some good groups at both seating depths. Intermediate seating depths did well also, but not quite as good as those 2 seating depths. I’d be happy loading at either (10 or 40).





    Bottom line:

    1) The new 184 BERGER seems to shoot a little bit tighter groups than the 180 Hybrid ... which was outstanding in it’s own right. These bullets shoot! Not sure I want to leave those original 180 hybrids behind... but these are nice.

    2) The 184 Hybrids seem to like about the same loads as the 180 Hybrids. Based on this experience ... the 184 Hybrids Are likely to run about 20 FPS slower than the 180 gr BERGER with an exact same load.

    3) The accuracy nodes between the 2 bullets seem about the same.

    4) I’m finding the 184 BERGER F OPEN HYBRIDS like both a jump of 10 th. and a jump of 40 th. to the lands on the bullet, but it looks fairly tolerant to a variety of seating depths.



    As usual .... work up to your load and your seating depths from below to tune to your rifle.

    Share and post your load data with me .... anxious to hear your results on these bullets !




    MontanaCreedmoor
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  11. Willow

    Willow

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    Cheers for the writeup Montana. It's likely to be a long time before these ever land in Australia as Berger are WAYYYY behind on shipments to Australia, so I'll be sticking with 180s for awhile yet but good to see that these look promising.
     
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  12. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    WILLOW from DownUnder:
    Don’t worry too much .... the original 180’s are awesome also. If/when they make it to Australia, certainly give the 184’s a try.
     
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  13. 6_5_284

    6_5_284

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    KEEP THE RESULTS COMING. REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR POSTS. GETTING READY TO DO A COUPLE MORE BARRELS. MINE ARE ALL 8.5 TWIST. HAVE HAD VERY GOOD SUCCESS WITH THEM. LOOKING FORWARD TO TRYING THE 184'S. THANKS AGAIN FOR THE WORK-UPS.
     
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  14. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    6_5_284: We’ll try to stretch these out to 300, 600 and 1000 yards soon. I’m guessing it will do awesome. Just need to see how the DOPE and come-ups compares to the 180’s ... especially at 1,000 yards.
     
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  15. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    300 yard results: UPDATE on BERGER 184 F-OPEN Hybrids versus original BERGER 180 hybrids at 300 yard grouping:

    Conditions:
    Shot both buklets at 300 yards at same outing. Shot some of the better loads from the 100 yard results and shot them against the “control” group ... of this rifle’s original 180 hybrid optimal load. Conditions were a variable wind at the back switching from 5 o’clock to 7 o’clock..... bad mirage, mid afternoon with high temperature (99F) shooting 5 shot groups at 300 yards. Shot multiple 5 round groups on each load recipe for additional validation and control. Less than ideal conditions for 300 yard detail control, as I would have preferred a good still no wind morning condition.

    Summary:
    • BERGER 184 hybrid with 53.4 gr H4831sc shot 0.24 MOA groups (0.762” group) 5 shot groups. Velocity: 2,779 FPS
    • BERGER 180 hybrid with 53.6 gr H4831sc shot 0.408 MOA Groups (1.281” group) 5 shot groups. velocity: 2,800 FPS (this was the control group)

    Shot additional loads faster than this ... and additional loads slower than this (down to 2,675 FPS).... but in the end, the optimal load taken from the 100 yard results came out again to be the best at 300 yards (of course the is a little more going on with the wind here) ....


    Photos posted below of the 184 group and the control group of the original 180 Berger Hybrids.
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. RampedRaptor

    RampedRaptor Silver $$ Contributor

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    Do you anticipate the new 184gr To respond the same way as the 180gr hybrids did to bullet tipping ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
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  17. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    RampedRaptor: I believe so. If you’ve had good results with the 180gr Hybrids, I think you’ll see very similar results with the 184gr Hybrids.
     
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  18. Blacktornado

    Blacktornado

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    Just got some today. I will test them next we. I checked 100 with bullet comparator and they don’t seem constant as 180 hybrid. Maximum difference for 180 is 3 thou and for 184 is 5-6 thou . Did you have similar results?
     
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  19. MontanaCreedmoor

    MontanaCreedmoor

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    BLACKTORNADO: I am seeing similar results.

    Physical weights have a little more dispersion and less consistency on each bullet than I have been seeing with the 180 HYBRIDS as well. A little more erratic than I’d like to see. early QAQC issues in the rush to get to market?????? Let me know how your load development comes out ... and how those groups look!
     
  20. Blacktornado

    Blacktornado

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    I will do it. I will test them in a 284 Sheane 9 twist 32”long . Best result is with 57,5 H 4831SC and 180 VLD , 2940 fps but it shoots good also with 57,8 H4831SC and 180 Hybrid at 2965 FPS . We will see and I let you know . I’m going to test at 440 yards.
     
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