New Berger .224 Bullet

Discussion in 'Small Stuff--22s, 20s, and 17s' started by xswanted, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. Bamban

    Bamban Silver $$ Contributor

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    Tested the 85.5s today.

    Range: Austin Rifle Club 200 yards

    Barrel: Service rifle 20 inch 7T KBI, harvested from a shot out space gun barrel

    Chamber: .253 neck .140 freebore

    Loaded round COL: 2.603 touching

    Load: New LC 15, 205M AR, 24.5 of some Swede powder The same load I used with the 80 VLDs.

    Average velocity: 2687

    Zeroed the rifle, fired 5 rounds of 77s to see how they tolerate long jump. POA was the "8" at 9, fired 2 of the 85.5s at the X ring could not discern holes (they are almost touching and about the same POI as the ones I shot on the "8") changed POA to the "8" at 3. Note the POI change between the 2 projectiles. I think I still have enough boiler room in the case to chase a higher velocity. It is cooler in Austin more than usual.

    After testing other rifles, I seated 5 rounds 0.015 jump and fired on "9". Group is still about the same as touching. Pushing bullets further into the case increased velocity a few more fps, 2692 average. It was also getting warmer.

    20191115_130438.jpg 20191115_130445.jpg 20191115_130450.jpg 20191115_143811.jpg Screenshot_20191115-131542_Shooter.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
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  2. Michael C

    Michael C

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    I tested these on Tuesday at 1000 yards, 223 Palma rifle 30”, 1x7 twist and a healthy dose of H4895. .169 freebore. I was getting 2930-2980 on a lab radar and just over 1400fps at the target on a shot marker. Accuracy seemed ok, I just shot two different powder charges and jumped both 30 thousandths. Seemed mostly on call, only had about 3 minutes of wind. I need to work on it to see if it will shoot.
     
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  3. Highpower-FClass

    Highpower-FClass Gold $$ Contributor

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    I shot the 85.5 for the first time in a 300 yard F-TR match yesterday.

    No real load development prior to the match, loaded up 5 sets of 5 in different charge weights, jumping 10. 24.0gr of Varget (2840 fps) shot best so that's what I loaded for the match. This is out of a 1-7 twist 30 inch barrel, 169 freebore.

    I shot a 596-36X (200-13, 199-11, 197-12) which is not stellar given the conditions were good. Too much movement both horizontal and vertical, especially as the day was warming up, but shows promise. I was hoping it would be a really small-shooting load out the gate but more development needed.
     
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  4. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    Best I been able to do with CFE223 consistently using 26.1 gr , getting about 0.50" groups at 100 yards with about 0.005 - 0.007 jump. Running about 2723 fps.

    Per Berger max load with CFE 223 is 27.0 gr. I tested all the way from 26.0 to 27.2, but got larger groups with the higher powder charges.

    2723 fps is pretty poor for an 85.5 gr bullet, so I'm gonna try Varget next, unless others have a better recommend on powder.

    ETA: this was out a 24" 1:7" bbl, so...
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  5. morpheus

    morpheus Jim Sokolowski Sling Shooter Gold $$ Contributor

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    I recommend you try AR-Comp. I tested from 23.0 - 24.0 grains and found the best accuracy at 23.6 grains. The velocity out of my 30" barreled 1:7" twist .223 bolt-action rifle was 2890 fps. This barrel was chambered long to shoot 90 VLDs, so it was well suited for the 85.5s. I did not see any pressure signs during my testing, but please apply all standard cautions if you try this load.
     
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  6. garandman

    garandman Bolt Gun Bodacious Gold $$ Contributor

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    Anyone using any of the Reloader powders for the 85.5 Bergers?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  7. raptor1ronin

    raptor1ronin Silver $$ Contributor

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    So I shot a club match at Ben Avery with the 85.5 vs my 90smk which were left over from the state championships midrange. We had a switching head wind most of the day from 5.7 to 8mph. I shot both 90 and 85.5 in the same string to see how they faired in the same conditions. My conclusion is that they shoot as hood as the 90SMK. My FPS for this test was 2830 with .20 jump. So far I’m satisfied with these bullets.
     

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  8. XTR

    XTR Gold $$ Contributor

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    I was talking to Emil Praslick about these at the FCNC and he showed me an equation that I hadn't seen to calculate probable achievable velocity with an unknown bullet of a given weight based on a known. I've been told it's a pretty straight forward kinetic energy equation but I wasn't familiar with it. In any case, the velocity you are getting there is pretty much exactly where it calculates to end up based on my 90VLD loads.
     
  9. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Gold $$ Contributor

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    For anyone not familiar with this method:

    Kinetic Energy = (1/2) MV*2

    Assume equal kinetic energy (i.e. equal pressure)>>>use mass/velocity for bullet #1, mass of bullet #2 and solve for unknown velocity.



    (1/2)M1V1*2 = (1/2)M2V2*2

    [Note: the (1/2) term is on both side of equation and cancels out, leaving:]

    M1V1*2 = M2V2*2



    If M1 = 2850 fps and V1 = 90 gr, and M2 = 85.5 gr

    (90 gr)(2850 fps)*2 = (85.5 gr)(V2)*2

    Solve for V2 = 2924 fps



    As mentioned, this method assumes the rounds are loaded to equal pressure (i.e. the same kinetic energy). Although there are caveats associated with this equation, it can be very useful to make a quick estimate. The main consideration to remember is that just because the equation predicts a certain velocity may be attainable with a different bullet, that doesn't mean a load with the different bullet will actually tune in at that predicted velocity. According to QuickLoad predictions, the 85.5s ought to dial in somewhere in the neighborhood of 2870-2880 fps from a 30" barrel, which is very close to the 2890 fps reported above by Morpheus. So even though it may be possible to launch them at well over 2900 fps (as estimated above with the KE equation) using a charge weight of H4895 comparable to what is required to push a 90 VLD at 2850 fps, they apparently tune in a bit slower than that.
     
  10. Laurie

    Laurie

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    OR .......... to simplify matters, simply use an online ME calculator instead of @Ned Ludd 's equations. EG:

    http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php

    I first read of this method in the original edition of Bryan Litz's Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting, which was then - and IMHO still is - must-have reading for any half serious long-range precision shooter.

    Having used this method many score times, it really is useful, nay essential, for simple bullet external ballistics comparisons. What usually, not guaranteed always, allows us to do it is the huge choice of powders we now have so there is nearly always one that will suit the 'new' bullet weight and provide the equivalent MV. As Ned says though, getting an equivalent MV is only half the story - no good if it shoots one-MOA groups with SDs of 50! It also assumes the chamber leade freebore and rifling pitch suits both models - which you'd expect here if contemplating the 85.5 against any of the 90s.

    I do look forward to their arriving in the UK whenever that is.
     
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  11. markgrabowski

    markgrabowski

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    Mike, I noticed the spike in SD with your 140 load... interesting how that can happen at certain charge weights. I’ve wondered why that happens... seen the same in my load testing
     
  12. LVLAaron

    LVLAaron Gold $$ Contributor

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    Anyone played with these in a 20 inch service rifle? Wylde chamber.
     
  13. Bamban

    Bamban Silver $$ Contributor

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    Not with Wylde freebore. I have Wylde body and neck, but with 0.100 freebore, and they work fine in a straight up 7T and 8-7 Gain Twist Bartlein service rifle length.
     
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  14. LVLAaron

    LVLAaron Gold $$ Contributor

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    I ordered 100 to play with. Using a 1:7.7 barrel so they should be fine.
     
  15. Bamban

    Bamban Silver $$ Contributor

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    You just have to try them in the 7.7T. The gain twist finishes at 7 twist. I shot them in another SR length, a 7 twist Krieger that I harvested from a 26 inch space gun barrel.
     
  16. Rtheurer

    Rtheurer

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    I could not the get the Verticle out of them from a Kreiger 1:7.7 Twist Service Rifle. Wylde plus .050. My Control groups with Berger 75 VLD or a Sierra 80gr Match Kings where more than half the size in grouping.
     
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  17. LVLAaron

    LVLAaron Gold $$ Contributor

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    That's what I'm shooting. Krieger 7.7

    Anyone need 100 85.5 bergers? :)
     
  18. APGE

    APGE

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    Interesting. I was considering putting together a 223 for 300 yard TR because I thought it would be more forgiving with gun handling than my 308 shooting 200s, allowing for faster shooting when conditions were stable.

    I have read that going any heavier than 200s in a 308 was a fools errand as despite the favourable ballistics, managing the recoil of, say a 230 hybrid or smk, made them much less accurate.


    I thought that by going the other way (223 shooting 85.5s), I would end up with a more forgiving rifle!

    Can you perhaps elaborate a little more on your troubles with the 223?
     
  19. milanuk

    milanuk Gold $$ Contributor

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    This was back in the days when B155.5 BTs 'ruled the world' in FTR... shooting an otherwise identical gun, in .223 Rem running B82BTs... it reminded me of shooting smallbore prone, vs. shooting XTC or MR conventional Prone.

    By that I mean that in the latter, if the sights were pretty much in the middle, and I pressed the trigger, the shot generally went down the middle (assuming I got the wind right) - even if the gun 'took off' a little as the shot broke. With the smaller cartridge... it seemed like even if the shot was right in the middle when the shot broke, if it moved a little different one shot than the last, god only knew where *that* one was going to end up - other than probably *not* in the middle.

    Shooting smallbore vs. conventional Prone, one could kind of explain it away due to the increase barrel time of a .22LR vs. a .223 or .308. Not sure why it would work that way with a .223 82 vs. a .308 155, but it seemed like it did, for me.

    The 200s are also *very* critical of gun handling... other than being relatively heavy for caliber and/or somewhat 'slower' than some other options, I can't imagine the barrel time being significantly different like with a .22LR.

    Sorry I'm not much help on this one.
     
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  20. iron308

    iron308

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    They are shooting pretty good at 3025fps out of a 32" bbl.
     

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