New 2019 NRA HP rules...

Discussion in 'Competition Forum (All Calibers)' started by Archer, Apr 4, 2019.

  1. Archer

    Archer

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    George,

    This was the response from Aaron Farmer when I made my initial inquiry on April 2nd this month...

    "Thanks for the inquiry and your support for the sport! I have not published those yet. The changes have been sent over to make the adjustments in the files and then will be posted as soon as possible. They will be up this month. Here are the high power changes that I have.

    If you need anything else please let me know. They will be up under the rule books page on the website as soon as they are ready to go.



    Aaron"
     
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  2. GSS

    GSS

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    Thanks,
    I been watching here for when they get released.. I would think this is the correct webpage
    https://competitions.nra.org/competition-resources/rule-books/
     
  3. davidjoe

    davidjoe Skunkworks Gold $$ Contributor

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    If a delay is such an intrinsically valuable part of F-class, why is providing the “fastest” possible pit service so emphasized at the beginning of every big match? Everyone wants the fastest pullers. I have never heard a pit call to slow down target pulling.

    The flinging of targets by two adults is almost a contest itself. If it could be done any faster without totally destroying the targets, it would be.

    So if that’s the case, how can it become problematic that nearly instantaneous feedback is possible? We have the ready-made possibility of everyone sharing the same identical “fastest” puller, and that itself is a problem.

    I think I’ve heard such as these referred to as first world problems.
     
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  4. Erud

    Erud

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    Ask the NRA, it’s their rule.
     
  5. GSS

    GSS

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    I anxious to see the actual / official rules before I go off on any rants about anything.

    Only one early draft form has been leaked from a non NRA official so who knows what will be in the official version once it gets released to us shooters and match directors
     
  6. David101

    David101

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    In Australia the marker size is 7.82mm for marking paper targets As peer the SSR's
     
  7. David101

    David101

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    A very interesting point re the optics. I wonder if a scope could ever be developed to read the mirage and give you the dope based on that. Also a scope with a button to turn the viability of mirage on and off.

    I think there may still be a little room left in the rifle system to improve the consistency from one shot to the next. In either barrel or stock. It would be good if barrels could be verified as shooters prior to ever putting a shot through them.
     
  8. David101

    David101

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    Interesting that solutions can be the same though of by different people thousands of mile apart from each other. Our club has all electronic targets however we have fun days when we invite the local Deer Hunting group to the range for some good natured competition using target rifles against hunting rifles but the way it is fired is more like hunting. Say 240 yrds off a field rest 500 yrds off a bipod and 100 yrds standing. When we have people using guns of unknown accuracy in the hands of a potentially very in experience person we revert back to paper targets. Recently we started to use a 50m pistol target. doing exactly that the shooter writes there name on the target they are all put in a pile and the butts calls the shooter to the lane when it is their turn. The coure of fire is more like 5-7 shots with 2 sighters marked and then the rest of the target shot blind. The target are then returned to the shooter to score and present to the score board.

    It has been a huge success with people really liking being able to take their target home to show family and friends or put in the man cave.
     
  9. Jetjock1

    Jetjock1

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    Let me try to address the 7 sec delay and the thinking involved. Backing up a few years shooting slowfire went something like this, “commence fire, wind doped and rifle windage set. Fire the shot, scope the target to ensure it went down in the pits while opening the bolt and loading a round without closing the bolt. Pick up the pencil and call the shot, then back on the scope and check the value of the shot fired. Evaluate the wind, adjust the sights as necessary, close the bolt and fire the next shot. Repeat the procedure except add the value of the first shot in the databook. I only say these things to give you all a feel for how a new to slightly experienced shooter learned to shoot. As rifles became more accurate and ballistics improved many shooters do not keep a complete databook, some not at all. Then along came etargets and databooks in F-class disappeared almost completely. Competitors hardly ever take their eyes off the scope and databooks are unnecessary because the monitor is plotting the data. In order to keep the sport somewhat as it was before F-class and forcing the shooters to read the wind a 7 second delay was instituted. National records were not even a consideration. Many competitors at the nationals and SWN expressed the view that without it, it might more mirror bench rest than target rife shooting. After all when Farqy invented F-class he only wanted to continue shooting his target rifle 7.62mm rifle in sling competition. Since Farqys days we have come along ways in rifles, ballistics and equipment and targets. The rules of today will not be the rules of tomorrow because we will need to adapt to improvements and competitors likes and dislikes. Let’s face it rifle shooting is an ever-changing sport, enjoy what you have and adapt as it changes but always enjoy it.

    Jetjock
     
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  10. GSS

    GSS

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    Thank You Jetjock,
    Can you shed any light on when we can expect the final version of all the latest round of rule changes to be posted for the public / shooters to see?

    Thanks again,
    George
     
  11. davidjoe

    davidjoe Skunkworks Gold $$ Contributor

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    Well said, but ever seen, or rather listened to, a sling shooter who is ready fire when his/her target isn’t up yet? They'll let you know just how atrocious it is that once or twice in a match, they can’t shoot the second they’re ready.

    I for one do get the pros of the delay, -more time = more wind changing to learn to master. (Speaking of - let’s not stack the deck, and have the high masters shoot last instead of first, then). It’s easy to envision that prior to F-Class, target service occurred and was completed while the shooter was reloading/repositioning, and so, to me, it’s hard to see how those days support a delay. (I do watch with great admiration, but not envy, the hard processes -they are hard- sling shooters expertly go through. And prone sling shooters can appreciate “properly” shooting “while standing on one’s two hind legs”, ... and next to muzzle loaders, all of us metallic cartridge folks are convenience seekers.)

    Single round loading from a fixed position is the unchanging element that makes F-class the same across the years, not the ring size, distance to, or time required to see the target. (We have seen the rings shrink, all the shorter distances shot wisely abandoned, and by-golly very different target pulling skills within matches, and it’s still F-class).

    Single round loading with rifle adjustment does have its own practical lower time limit, which I’d be content to see set the “speed limit” on E-targets.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  12. Jetjock1

    Jetjock1

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    George, I have asked HQ once again just three days ago and have not heard anything yet. Aaron Farmer who will put them up on the web site has sent them to the rulebook editor for update and will probably put them when he receives them back from the editor. He is currently on vacation this week so let's hope next week.
    Jetjock
     
  13. GSS

    GSS

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    Excellent, Thank You.

    Next during this year many of us will be monitoring the situation on what NRA will be doing for testing various E target manufacturers products for NRA Approval / Certification in NRA Approved and Registered matches.

    Thanks Again!
    George
     
  14. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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    Ok, I see that the NRA rule on the 7 second delay was not motivated by national records. I still don’t see any explanation for the selection of 7 seconds, but I’ll ignore that random capricious value for now.

    I read the post a couple of times and I can’t help but think that Jetjock never fired a match in F-class competition.

    I started in Connaught in 1981 pair firing on big-ash 12 feet wide targets using range-issued ammo. I went from Service Rifle to F-Class in 2006 and have never looked back. I still have my databook from my days prior to F-Class but I have not kept up a databook in F-class, or at least not one in the traditional sense of plotting every shot and recording the sight adjustment and the score for each shot. What I have is a record of the zeros that I had for different ranges and venues. I am not aware of anyone keeping a traditional databook in F-class, in which each shot is plotted along with sight adjustment and score for each shot. In fact, if you are messing with your scope for each shot in F-Class, you are doing it wrong. I will not speak for all the F-class shooters, but I do know many of them, myself included, actually hold on the target rather than dial a correction on the scope. When I start a match, I will dial in a correction for the dominant conditions and then take sighters to fine tune my setting, especially for elevation but I’m already holding on rings to deal with the conditions. When I start my string, I may adjust the elevation using the scope dial, but before I touch the windage on the scope, there has to have been a MAJOR condition change during the string.

    I am always looking through my spotting scope, or at the flags or through my riflescope once I’m on the line. I know that many other F-Class competitors do the same; we are not plotting the shots on paper shooting individually; most F-class shooters haven’t done that, ever.

    The etarget monitors only show the last shot fired in registered competition at Bayou Rifles, so no one is using the monitor to plot the shots.

    At Bayou, we have sling shooters competing alongside F-Class shooters. At the last match, I even put sling and F shooters on the same target. All they did was change target face when they shot. Before we had to keep them separate because the paper faces are different; not so with the etargets.

    I also see where “preserving the sanctity of the national records” was not a consideration in mandating the 7 second delay. Jetjock does state that the 7 second delay was mandated “(i)n order to keep the sport somewhat as it was before F-class and forcing the shooters to read the wind”.

    I’m sorry to burst that bubble, but that ship sailed over 12 years ago. As I explained earlier, F-class shooters do it very differently compared to the sling shooters. When George Farquharson petitioned the DCRA for an exemption to use a bipod and a scope on his match rifle so he could continue to compete, the 40X and 60X riflescopes were few and far between and the bipods of those days were far removed from the bipods of today and especially from the battery-operated, power-driven, gyro-stabilized, GPS-located, Laser-guided, Bluetooth-connected front rests with the cappuccino add-on used in F-Open. I can also assure you the F-Open rifles of today would be near impossible to shoot with a sling and coat; the barrels (usually truck axles stolen from heavy duty pickup truck,) are so heavy they would lift most shooters from the ground when held on the line.

    In my estimation, the reasoning behind the 7 second rule is faulty and capricious but I don’t really care because I shoot F-TR (the real F-class from George Farquharson’s intent.) I can’t shoot faster than 7 seconds; it takes me that much time or longer to check the spotting scope after the shot, to cycle the bolt, to pick the fired case from the bolt face (no ejector, I could not afford one,) put the case back in the ammo box, load the next round, go back to the spotting scope, then line up the rifle on target (I don’t have a return to zero frond rest and rear bag setup as in F-Open) and then look at my smartphone to get the score and location of the prior shot.



    So, if the intent of the rule is to slow down the rate of fire, for some random reason, I have a question. I am planning to introduce pair firing at an upcoming Bayou Rifles match, just like they have in international competition. By definition, pair firing will slow down the rate of fire for a shooter. The way I am proposing to implement it with the ShotMarker etargets is as follows:

    We will divide the shooters into teams of 2 people. Possibly one F-Open and one F-TR per team, as much as possible.

    The targets will be set to no-sighter mode, all shoots will be scored. The shooters will have each other’s score cards and they will have to score each other for every shot. Do I need to set the etargets to the 7-second delay mode, or can I make them immediate?
     
  15. skibar_tx

    skibar_tx

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    Denys, I get a sense that pair firing falls under the NRA Fullbore rules, not the NRA Highpower rules. I am not sure that the fullbore rules have addressed e-targets to date.
     
  16. Jetjock1

    Jetjock1

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    The situation you describe above are covered both rulebooks and the fullbore book will be updated with etarget rules shortly.
    Jetjock1
     
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  17. Jennb

    Jennb

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    Sounds like fun and will most definitely help me gain better wind reading skills.
     
  18. Jetjock1

    Jetjock1

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    Denys
    I ask that you please don't judge someone without knowing them. I have a current classification in F-class. I have fired in OTC, Mid range, Long Range, 300 meter, F-class, smallbore, presision pistol, international pistol, collegiate smallbore, competed overseas in smallbore and international pistol and 300 meter competitions. I have fired the Springfield 03, M!, M-14, M-16, Match Rifle, 300 winchester magnum, 40x, Savage Model 12, anschutz .22cal, model 41, 1911 and a few other firearms in competition. At age 88 I am limited to F-sbr but attend many competitions in HP and Smallbore, so don't act like I'm an amateur when it comes to competition. Yes, maybe I'm not current on all the bells and whistles that you are but I am grounded in the basics of F-class shooting.

    Now that I got that off my chest let's get to the basis of your question. A few years back at the SWN a large number (maybe close to 50) of F-class shooters asked the NRA HP committee to consider a delay be built into etargets to avoid becoming another branch of bench rest and to try to keep the sport like paper target/pits rifle shooting. They suggested a 7 sec delay. That is not an ironclad number but a point to start from. If a great number of F-class competitors are upset with 7 sec the HP committee will reconsider the 7sec rule and try to meet the competitors desire.

    Hope that answers your question.
    Jetjock
     
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  19. davidjoe

    davidjoe Skunkworks Gold $$ Contributor

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    Nobody that can fire fast, exceptionally well, complains it shouldn’t be allowed. To fire fast well, you basically need a setup capable of tracking like Benchrest does. Back and forth tracking. Smooth light bolt. Plus skills of course.

    When I hear we aren’t like benchrest, I wonder if I’m the only one that’s noticed that F-Open and benchrest equipment are exactly the same. TR does it’s best to make a bipod track back and forth, too.

    Target pulling delay was merely incidental to the mechanics involved in corrected bullseye shooting. It wasn’t ever a goal, itself.

    I wasn’t a proponent to change over to Etarget in first place, but if we are going to use them, why saddle them and our equipment with a side effect of paper. After all we don’t require shooters to using paper to change their focal point to the mat 18 inches in front of them a couple of times a shot.
     
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  20. milanuk

    milanuk Gold $$ Contributor

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    Last I checked, F-class is shot off the ground, often the very *un*level ground, and more often than not, *not* from under a cover (@ 1k). The equipment may be very close to the same as BR, but the course of fire is not.

    /rant on

    I still think that more Fullbore/pair-fire and less string-fire would fix the whole damn problem. That, or knock off letting people start moving their 50 lbs of crap to the line *before* the two minute pre-prep warning. Not having 10+ minutes to set up and dig in their artillery emplacements might put the kabosh to some of this 'perfect tracking' BS. If you want the extra time, do it on your own clock. Better yet, run the matches ala Fullbore, where you *don't* have the extra time on the clock - because the other person(s) on the mound would surely object, cuz it comes out of *their* time.

    /rant off
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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