• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Neck tension without neck turning?

Is it worth setting neck tension with a bushing die if you’re NOT neck turning your brass?

Another related question. I have a normal resizing RCBS die today. Will this die NOT create consistent neck tension or is it going to make for too much neck tension?
 
Will this die NOT create consistent neck tension or is it going to make for too much neck tension?
You should know your chamber neck diameter, you sizing die neck diameter and the neck OD you want for the desired neck tension.

Since chamber necks vary, sizing die necks vary, it is almost impossible to answer your question about neck tension.

For your chamber neck diameter, you can measure you fired case neck OD's. Depending on the age of the brass and number of firings since last annealed, add 0.001" to 0.002" for the chamber neck diameter.

Take the expander out of your sizing die, size the case and measure the neck OD. Same disclaimer on brass condition, but subtract the 0.001 to 0.002" since spring back is working in the opposite direction.

Then measure the case neck OD after your expander passed through the case neck and after you seat a bullet.

Now you know exactly (nearly) what you have and how much work you are subjecting the case neck to each firing cycle. This can tell you how often you need to anneal your brass if you don't anneal every firing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dub
To the OP, absolutely. IMO the best way to do it is in conjunction with a expander ball in the die or an expander die and mandrel. By selecting the proper bushing you can limit the amount of expanding up required which has a beneficial effect on case, and eventually loaded round concentricity. The IDs of the sized necks are made more uniform as to shape and size than they would be if a bushing was used without some type of expanding up after.
 
You should know your chamber neck diameter, you sizing die neck diameter and the neck OD you want for the desired neck tension.

Since chamber necks vary, sizing die necks vary, it is almost impossible to answer your question about neck tension.

For your chamber neck diameter, you can measure you fired case neck OD's. Depending on the age of the brass and number of firings since last annealed, add 0.001" to 0.002" for the chamber neck diameter.

Take the expander out of your sizing die, size the case and measure the neck OD. Same disclaimer on brass condition, but subtract the 0.001 to 0.002" since spring back is working in the opposite direction.

Then measure the case neck OD after your expander passed through the case neck and after you seat a bullet.

Now you know exactly (nearly) what you have and how much work you are subjecting the case neck to each firing cycle. This can tell you how often you need to anneal your brass if you don't anneal every firing.

Thanks everyone for the replies, sounds like I should use bushings even without neck sizing.

What do I do with the numbers above to determine how often to anneal? I have annealing equipment but have only annealed once. Does it inform me of anything else too?

Also, for neck tension this is from the Redding site. Is this the best way?

The easiest way to determine the proper diameter bushing is to measure the neck diameter of several loaded or dummy cartridges with an accurate micrometer. (These dummy cartridges can be loaded with your old set of dies or a borrowed set.) Then, simply subtract 0.001" from the cartridge that had the smallest average measurement. This will allow for a slight amount of spring back and create a proper press fit for the bullet.
 
What do I do with the numbers above to determine how often to anneal?
I "mostly" anneal to avoid neck cracks. From the minimum neck OD to the maximum neck OD, I see around 0.008" difference. When I put the brass through 3 cycles, I have hardened the brass enough I need to anneal to avoid the cracks. This is mostly for my AR brass.

For my 6cm brass I only see about 0.004" difference per cycle, so I anneal every other firing to keep my neck tension very similar.

Kind of depends on what you are trying to accomplish with your annealing.
 
You may want to consider using a mandrel in conjunction with your existing die. You can buy pin gages for $4 each. I'd buy from bullet diameter to 0.002" below bullet diameter. You can use them with a collet type bullet pulling die. It makes for a economical way to play with neck tension.
 
To the OP, absolutely. IMO the best way to do it is in conjunction with a expander ball in the die or an expander die and mandrel. By selecting the proper bushing you can limit the amount of expanding up required which has a beneficial effect on case, and eventually loaded round concentricity. The IDs of the sized necks are made more uniform as to shape and size than they would be if a bushing was used without some type of expanding up after.
You may want to consider using a mandrel in conjunction with your existing die. You can buy pin gages for $4 each. I'd buy from bullet diameter to 0.002" below bullet diameter. You can use them with a collet type bullet pulling die. It makes for a economical way to play with neck tension.

Thanks again for the information. I did some research from the information above

I’m fine if I have to replace the RCBS resizing die.

Should I get, for example:

1. Redding type-S bushing
2. 21st century mandrels?

Then do the following with brass?

1. Resize with the Redding bushing dies
2. Trim the brass to size, deburr the mouth
3. Use 21st century mandrels

Thoughts on the above?

Also, when using the mandrels, how do I know which size to use? 6.5 creedmoor. I use Hornady brass with Hornady ELD-M 140s

I Really appreciate the help
 
The Redding type S FL dies come with both an expander and a decapping pin retainer if you do not want to use the expander button. If you choose a bushing such that, with the average neck thickness of your brass, the expander is only expanding the sized necks a thousandth or so, no damage will be done to concentricity. (Even so, a dry lube is recommended.) If you want to play with non standard expanders, which might require adjustments of bushing size, Whidden sells sets of expander buttons in graduated sizes per caliber. that are compatible with Redding dies. Of course you can also go the expander die and mandrel route, but before you do any of this, I suggest you consider your realistic accuracy expectations of your rifle, and what, given what it will be used for, you really need.
 
The Redding type S FL dies come with both an expander and a decapping pin retainer if you do not want to use the expander button. If you choose a bushing such that, with the average neck thickness of your brass, the expander is only expanding the sized necks a thousandth or so, no damage will be done to concentricity. (Even so, a dry lube is recommended.) If you want to play with non standard expanders, which might require adjustments of bushing size, Whidden sells sets of expander buttons in graduated sizes per caliber. that are compatible with Redding dies. Of course you can also go the expander die and mandrel route, but before you do any of this, I suggest you consider your realistic accuracy expectations of your rifle, and what, given what it will be used for, you really need.
Would you omit expanding after bushing neck sizing if the necks have been turned uniformly, and the desired neck ID can be produced by the bushing?
-
 
The Redding type S FL dies come with both an expander and a decapping pin retainer if you do not want to use the expander button. If you choose a bushing such that, with the average neck thickness of your brass, the expander is only expanding the sized necks a thousandth or so, no damage will be done to concentricity. (Even so, a dry lube is recommended.) If you want to play with non standard expanders, which might require adjustments of bushing size, Whidden sells sets of expander buttons in graduated sizes per caliber. that are compatible with Redding dies. Of course you can also go the expander die and mandrel route, but before you do any of this, I suggest you consider your realistic accuracy expectations of your rifle, and what, given what it will be used for, you really need.

I currently shoot F-Class and also want to improve what I’m shooting on paper

That said I am incrementally adding to my reloading steps to improve what I’m doing.

Do you think I should just skip to neck turning instead?

Also, I was reading that the buttons aren’t as good as mandrels. What are your thoughts on that?
 
Last edited:
The Redding type S FL dies come with both an expander and a decapping pin retainer if you do not want to use the expander button. If you choose a bushing such that, with the average neck thickness of your brass, the expander is only expanding the sized necks a thousandth or so, no damage will be done to concentricity. (Even so, a dry lube is recommended.) If you want to play with non standard expanders, which might require adjustments of bushing size, Whidden sells sets of expander buttons in graduated sizes per caliber. that are compatible with Redding dies. Of course you can also go the expander die and mandrel route, but before you do any of this, I suggest you consider your realistic accuracy expectations of your rifle, and what, given what it will be used for, you really need.
Thank you, Boyd. Makes perfect sense.
 
I currently shoot F-Class and also want to improve what I’m shooting on paper

That said I am incrementally adding to my reloading steps to improve what I’m doing.

Do you think I should just skip to neck turning instead?

Also, I was reading that the buttons aren’t as good as mandrels. What are your thoughts on that?

I think you'll find that a majority of F-Open shooters turn necks, whereas some F-TR shooters using .223 Rem or .308 Win turn necks, but plenty do not. Nonetheless, the use of a mandrel as the final sizing step may offer some benefit to your reloading regimen. It's not an endeavor requiring a huge expense, so it might be worthwhile to give it a try before committing to turning all your necks, just to see whether it helps.

There is a potential downside to the type S die expander ball that expands the neck as it is pulled [out]. I have observed a number of occasions where people had runout issues that ultimately were found to result from the expander ball. I remove the expander ball before use on all my type S dies. You will need to empirically determine whether you die setups with the expander ball induce runout. If not, that may be all you need.

One of the keys to purchasing the correct sizes of bushing or mandrels to re-size necks is being aware that the spring-back of the brass works in the opposite direction. In other words, a bushing squeezes the neck down, so the neck will open up slightly after it comes out of the die, whereas a mandrel opens the neck up from the inside, so the neck will shrink slightly after the mandrel is removed. In either case, it is usually necessary to move the brass a measurable amount. Trying to use either approach where the selected size bushing or mandrel is almost the exact same size as the neck diameter already is does not give consistent results in my hands. In the most common use of a bushing die, that is rarely an issue because you're using it to squeeze down the necks of fired brass that will already be several thousandths larger than the chosen (desired) bushing. Thus, the brass is being sized a noticeable amount and the bushing can do its job efficiently and effectively.

If you decide to use a mandrel as the final sizing step with fired brass, it is obviously necessary to size first down the necks of fired brass to a diameter at least .001" to .002" smaller than the mandrel will ultimately open them up in order for it to do its job effectively. Some testing/experimentation may be necessary to determine the correct bushing to allow the mandrel to do its job, while not excessively working the brass.

Once that is done, I think you will find that the proper use of a mandrel as the final neck-sizing step can provide very uniform neck diameter and neck tension (interference fit), as well as very straight necks (i.e. little to no runout). In my hands, a mandrel that is approximately 0.0015" under bullet diameter will give very close to .002" neck tension. Again, that is because of the direction of spring-back when opening necks up with a mandrel is for them to shrink a tiny bit. This is because you first sized them with the bushing die to a slightly smaller diameter in order to allow the mandrel to effectively open them back up to the final desired diameter. A mandrel that is a full .002" under bullet diameter will usually give somewhere in the neighborhood of .0025 to .003" neck tension for the same reason.

There are different options for use as mandrels such as the calibrated pin gauge sets, or mandrels made specifically for re-sizing cases. For a number of reasons, I prefer the 21st Century mandrels. More specifically, I do not need a particularly wide range of sizes as I already know pretty closely what size I need for the job (i.e. a mandrel .0015" under bullet diameter gives very close to the ~.002" neck tension I typically use). They are a bit more expensive than the pin gauges, but they do not require any further modification for their use. Here is a link to the 21st Century mandrels and die:

http://www.xxicsi.com/expander-die-body.html

http://www.xxicsi.com/caliber-specific-expander-mandrels.html

I also keep a few other sizes of these mandrels around for specific tasks, such as removing "flat spots" from the necks of cases fired in rifles that have strong ejector springs. Whenever I need a new size, I purchase it and add it to the set.

Another consideration for the use of mandrels to size necks I should note is that my F-TR rifles all have no-turn neck chambers. Thus there is plenty of clearance between the chamber and the case neck wall. The idea of using a mandrel to size necks is that it will push some of any non-consistent neck wall thickness to the outside, thereby providing better and more uniform neck tension and seating force. However, it may not work as well in a tight neck chamber intended for neck-turned brass if there is not sufficient room for the neck walls of unturned brass expanded with a mandrel (i.e. some of the inconsistent neck wall thickness pushed to the outside of the neck). The reason for this is that the bullet of a loaded round is essentially self-centering with respect to the bore in the long tight freebores we typically use in F-Class rifles if there is sufficient clearance around the case neck. If you have even a moderately tight-necked chamber, you may have better results just going straight to neck turning. Nonetheless, the use of a mandrel is a relatively inexpensive option to consider for improving consistency of neck tension.
 
Another option that works very well in the 6.5 creedmoor is using a redding body die to bump the shoulder and size the body and a lee neck sizing collet die to size the neck..
 
I think you'll find that a majority of F-Open shooters turn necks, whereas some F-TR shooters using .223 Rem or .308 Win turn necks, but plenty do not. Nonetheless, the use of a mandrel as the final sizing step may offer some benefit to your reloading regimen. It's not an endeavor requiring a huge expense, so it might be worthwhile to give it a try before committing to turning all your necks, just to see whether it helps.

There is a potential downside to the type S die expander ball that expands the neck as it is pulled [out]. I have observed a number of occasions where people had runout issues that ultimately were found to result from the expander ball. I remove the expander ball before use on all my type S dies. You will need to empirically determine whether you die setups with the expander ball induce runout. If not, that may be all you need.

One of the keys to purchasing the correct sizes of bushing or mandrels to re-size necks is being aware that the spring-back of the brass works in the opposite direction. In other words, a bushing squeezes the neck down, so the neck will open up slightly after it comes out of the die, whereas a mandrel opens the neck up from the inside, so the neck will shrink slightly after the mandrel is removed. In either case, it is usually necessary to move the brass a measurable amount. Trying to use either approach where the selected size bushing or mandrel is almost the exact same size as the neck diameter already is does not give consistent results in my hands. In the most common use of a bushing die, that is rarely an issue because you're using it to squeeze down the necks of fired brass that will already be several thousandths larger than the chosen (desired) bushing. Thus, the brass is being sized a noticeable amount and the bushing can do its job efficiently and effectively.

If you decide to use a mandrel as the final sizing step with fired brass, it is obviously necessary to size first down the necks of fired brass to a diameter at least .001" to .002" smaller than the mandrel will ultimately open them up in order for it to do its job effectively. Some testing/experimentation may be necessary to determine the correct bushing to allow the mandrel to do its job, while not excessively working the brass.

Once that is done, I think you will find that the proper use of a mandrel as the final neck-sizing step can provide very uniform neck diameter and neck tension (interference fit), as well as very straight necks (i.e. little to no runout). In my hands, a mandrel that is approximately 0.0015" under bullet diameter will give very close to .002" neck tension. Again, that is because of the direction of spring-back when opening necks up with a mandrel is for them to shrink a tiny bit. This is because you first sized them with the bushing die to a slightly smaller diameter in order to allow the mandrel to effectively open them back up to the final desired diameter. A mandrel that is a full .002" under bullet diameter will usually give somewhere in the neighborhood of .0025 to .003" neck tension for the same reason.

There are different options for use as mandrels such as the calibrated pin gauge sets, or mandrels made specifically for re-sizing cases. For a number of reasons, I prefer the 21st Century mandrels. More specifically, I do not need a particularly wide range of sizes as I already know pretty closely what size I need for the job (i.e. a mandrel .0015" under bullet diameter gives very close to the ~.002" neck tension I typically use). They are a bit more expensive than the pin gauges, but they do not require any further modification for their use. Here is a link to the 21st Century mandrels and die:

http://www.xxicsi.com/expander-die-body.html

http://www.xxicsi.com/caliber-specific-expander-mandrels.html

I also keep a few other sizes of these mandrels around for specific tasks, such as removing "flat spots" from the necks of cases fired in rifles that have strong ejector springs. Whenever I need a new size, I purchase it and add it to the set.

Another consideration for the use of mandrels to size necks I should note is that my F-TR rifles all have no-turn neck chambers. Thus there is plenty of clearance between the chamber and the case neck wall. The idea of using a mandrel to size necks is that it will push some of any non-consistent neck wall thickness to the outside, thereby providing better and more uniform neck tension and seating force. However, it may not work as well in a tight neck chamber intended for neck-turned brass if there is not sufficient room for the neck walls of unturned brass expanded with a mandrel (i.e. some of the inconsistent neck wall thickness pushed to the outside of the neck). The reason for this is that the bullet of a loaded round is essentially self-centering with respect to the bore in the long tight freebores we typically use in F-Class rifles if there is sufficient clearance around the case neck. If you have even a moderately tight-necked chamber, you may have better results just going straight to neck turning. Nonetheless, the use of a mandrel is a relatively inexpensive option to consider for improving consistency of neck tension.

This write up was extremely helpful to me, thank you. I have yet to venture into any kind of neck tension, and I was not even aware of spring back.

Some of the previous posts now make a lot more sense to me.

Seems the requirement is to (verifying I understand):

1. Use the bushing to size the neck down below the mandrel size, including spring back (thank you for explaining spring back, I was unaware of this).

2. Use the mandrel to size the neck up to the desired neck tension to get good concentricity and neck tension (including spring back).

And the goal above is to size down and up as little as possible in order to not work the brass too much.
 
Last edited:
It has been my experience that the key to not affecting runout when using and expander ball with an S type FL die is using a bushing such that the expander ball is not doing much work. If you use a bushing that is smaller than it needs to be, you will be more likely have issues.
 
I think you'll find that a majority of F-Open shooters turn necks, whereas some F-TR shooters using .223 Rem or .308 Win turn necks, but plenty do not. Nonetheless, the use of a mandrel as the final sizing step may offer some benefit to your reloading regimen. It's not an endeavor requiring a huge expense, so it might be worthwhile to give it a try before committing to turning all your necks, just to see whether it helps.

There is a potential downside to the type S die expander ball that expands the neck as it is pulled [out]. I have observed a number of occasions where people had runout issues that ultimately were found to result from the expander ball. I remove the expander ball before use on all my type S dies. You will need to empirically determine whether you die setups with the expander ball induce runout. If not, that may be all you need.

One of the keys to purchasing the correct sizes of bushing or mandrels to re-size necks is being aware that the spring-back of the brass works in the opposite direction. In other words, a bushing squeezes the neck down, so the neck will open up slightly after it comes out of the die, whereas a mandrel opens the neck up from the inside, so the neck will shrink slightly after the mandrel is removed. In either case, it is usually necessary to move the brass a measurable amount. Trying to use either approach where the selected size bushing or mandrel is almost the exact same size as the neck diameter already is does not give consistent results in my hands. In the most common use of a bushing die, that is rarely an issue because you're using it to squeeze down the necks of fired brass that will already be several thousandths larger than the chosen (desired) bushing. Thus, the brass is being sized a noticeable amount and the bushing can do its job efficiently and effectively.

If you decide to use a mandrel as the final sizing step with fired brass, it is obviously necessary to size first down the necks of fired brass to a diameter at least .001" to .002" smaller than the mandrel will ultimately open them up in order for it to do its job effectively. Some testing/experimentation may be necessary to determine the correct bushing to allow the mandrel to do its job, while not excessively working the brass.

Once that is done, I think you will find that the proper use of a mandrel as the final neck-sizing step can provide very uniform neck diameter and neck tension (interference fit), as well as very straight necks (i.e. little to no runout). In my hands, a mandrel that is approximately 0.0015" under bullet diameter will give very close to .002" neck tension. Again, that is because of the direction of spring-back when opening necks up with a mandrel is for them to shrink a tiny bit. This is because you first sized them with the bushing die to a slightly smaller diameter in order to allow the mandrel to effectively open them back up to the final desired diameter. A mandrel that is a full .002" under bullet diameter will usually give somewhere in the neighborhood of .0025 to .003" neck tension for the same reason.

There are different options for use as mandrels such as the calibrated pin gauge sets, or mandrels made specifically for re-sizing cases. For a number of reasons, I prefer the 21st Century mandrels. More specifically, I do not need a particularly wide range of sizes as I already know pretty closely what size I need for the job (i.e. a mandrel .0015" under bullet diameter gives very close to the ~.002" neck tension I typically use). They are a bit more expensive than the pin gauges, but they do not require any further modification for their use. Here is a link to the 21st Century mandrels and die:

http://www.xxicsi.com/expander-die-body.html

http://www.xxicsi.com/caliber-specific-expander-mandrels.html

I also keep a few other sizes of these mandrels around for specific tasks, such as removing "flat spots" from the necks of cases fired in rifles that have strong ejector springs. Whenever I need a new size, I purchase it and add it to the set.

Another consideration for the use of mandrels to size necks I should note is that my F-TR rifles all have no-turn neck chambers. Thus there is plenty of clearance between the chamber and the case neck wall. The idea of using a mandrel to size necks is that it will push some of any non-consistent neck wall thickness to the outside, thereby providing better and more uniform neck tension and seating force. However, it may not work as well in a tight neck chamber intended for neck-turned brass if there is not sufficient room for the neck walls of unturned brass expanded with a mandrel (i.e. some of the inconsistent neck wall thickness pushed to the outside of the neck). The reason for this is that the bullet of a loaded round is essentially self-centering with respect to the bore in the long tight freebores we typically use in F-Class rifles if there is sufficient clearance around the case neck. If you have even a moderately tight-necked chamber, you may have better results just going straight to neck turning. Nonetheless, the use of a mandrel is a relatively inexpensive option to consider for improving consistency of neck tension.
Once again another great post Nedd. I really like the idea of using a big enough expander after sizing. Trying to expand up requires an expander that is slightly larger than most would think. .001 larger might result in no change at all especially with regard to annealling.
 
This write up was extremely helpful to me, thank you. I have yet to venture into any kind of neck tension, and I was not even aware of spring back.

Some of the previous posts now make a lot more sense to me.

Seems the requirement is to (verifying I understand):

1. Use the bushing to size the neck down below the mandrel size, including spring back (thank you for explaining spring back, I was unaware of this).

2. Use the mandrel to size the neck up to the desired neck tension to get good concentricity and neck tension (including spring back).

And the goal above is to size down and up as little as possible in order to not work the brass too much.

Yes, spot on. In my hands, choosing a bushing that sizes necks very close (i.e. less than .001") to what the mandrel will ultimately open them up to leads to greater variance. A bushing that sizes to [at least] .001" or .002" below what the mandrel will achieve seems to work better, without grossly over-working the brass. I usually use a bushing that sizes necks to approximately .002" under the diameter to which mandrel will open them up, and it seems to work pretty well for me. I the anneal the brass every firing anyhow, so it doesn't seem to be a problem.

A mandrel-based approach may certainly be worth trying for you. I don't believe it will ultimately be equivalent to turning necks, but it may be a small improvement over your current approach. You can always choose to start turning necks if the mandrel approach doesn't provide a noticeable benefit. The numbers I provided will hopefully provide a good starting point for you, but like everything, no approach is written in stone and you may have to experiment a bit to find the best combination for your setup.
 
Yes, spot on. In my hands, choosing a bushing that sizes necks very close (i.e. less than .001") to what the mandrel will ultimately open them up to leads to greater variance. A bushing that sizes to [at least] .001" or .002" below what the mandrel will achieve seems to work better, without grossly over-working the brass. I usually use a bushing that sizes necks to approximately .002" under the diameter to which mandrel will open them up, and it seems to work pretty well for me. I the anneal the brass every firing anyhow, so it doesn't seem to be a problem.

A mandrel-based approach may certainly be worth trying for you. I don't believe it will ultimately be equivalent to turning necks, but it may be a small improvement over your current approach. You can always choose to start turning necks if the mandrel approach doesn't provide a noticeable benefit. The numbers I provided will hopefully provide a good starting point for you, but like everything, no approach is written in stone and you may have to experiment a bit to find the best combination for your setup.

I guess my next step will be trying to resize a piece of brass in the RCBS without the expander to see what size it is.

For 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady Brass, what I have thus far for twice fired (non-annealed) brass:
  • ~.2870 neck dimensions for resized brass with the expander using a caliper
  • ~.2900 bullet loaded neck thickness
With a .264 bullet, this means my neck thickness is roughly ~.0130. Current neck tension is ~.003

If the RCBS without the expander sizes the brass, to say for example, ~.2865, then I am looking at an internal neck diameter of roughly ~.2605. If I then expand the brass using a mandrel from .2605 to .2625, then I should be achieving a neck tension around ~.002 after spring back. And this would be without using the bushing die - just my current RCBS

Of course I need to test the above to see what the RCBS is doing without the expander ball.

I must say, everyone that has posted in this thread has been very helpful. I think I've gone from not knowing much about neck tension to knowing a decent amount. Thanks!
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,963
Messages
2,206,766
Members
79,233
Latest member
Cheeapet
Back
Top