Neck lube for seating bullets?

Discussion in 'Reloading Forum (All Calibers)' started by thefitter, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. thefitter

    thefitter Site $$ Contributor

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    New to hand loading and I have been told by several people that my seating depth discrepancies are from not having any lube inside the case necks when I'm seating my bullets. I have been told by an equal amount of people that this is BS.

    I need you pros here to set me straight. Thanks
     
  2. fullersson

    fullersson B&B Gunworks bbgunworks.com Site $$ Contributor

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    I've never used any lube for bullet seating. Maybe a lower quality seating die or more than likely too much neck tension on the brass.
     
  3. jonbearman

    jonbearman I live in new york state,how unfortunate ! Site $$ Contributor

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    That is incorrect.You dont lube the necks for the seating procedure.Now sizing may require a little case lube,I use redding wax for that.If the rounds have been fired in the same gun you can neck size only with a redding bushing type full length or neck only type of die.You dont have to full length size every time.You only do this if you have hard bolt turn after neck sizing and try the cases in the gun(select a few from the lot) . What caliber and do you trim to the same length? Give us more imfo,type of gun ,brass and primers,and dies you use.
     
  4. jo191145

    jo191145 Site $$ Contributor

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    Your seating depth discrepancies might arise from measuring the loaded round from base to tip.
    Base to ogive is the correct method. If you do not have the tools to do that you need to trust your seater die until you do.
    If you are seeing discrepancies in base to ogive your either making some very compressed loads with in adequate neck tension or your bullets are junk ;)
    Occassionally seater plugs/dies need a little reworking too.
     
  5. thefitter

    thefitter Site $$ Contributor

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    Thanks

    Disclaimer: I'm not a BR guy but I come here often to learn.

    REM 700 SPS TAC .308

    Yes I trim to length. Forster press and Forster Micrometer seating die. I'm measuring at the ogive.

    Bullets are SMK in 168 and 175. I just started playing with 155 Scenars and it seems that these have less discrepancies. I understand that there are discrepancies in the bullets but if the die is seating off the ogive and the base and I'm measuring off the ogive and the base why does it start to walk after 4-5 rounds?
     
  6. jo191145

    jo191145 Site $$ Contributor

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    :-\
    Are your measurements walking?

    Is the die tight?

    SMK's can be pretty rough. Folks who use them tend to sort by length and they usually shoot best with a jump to the lands. Personally I feel thats because of the built in discrepancies among other things. JMO

    Scenars are at the other end of the spectrum. They're so darn pointy many seating plugs seat them from the tip. You'd need to check your seating plug to determine if it needs to be drilled deeper. I had to do just that on a Hornady 308W seater for the Scenars.

    How much variation are you seeing in your measurements?
     
  7. thefitter

    thefitter Site $$ Contributor

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  8. jo191145

    jo191145 Site $$ Contributor

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    In reality the seater does not seat off the ogive. It would damage the bullet attempting it. In reality your comparator is not measuring off the ogive either but probably closer to it than the seater.
    So its possible theres a littlle variation right there.

    I never like to see more than .001" difference in bullet measurements. Usually thats what I get with no troubleshooting.
    If they're SMK's you can expect a tad more.

    If you haven't already, pull that seater apart. Clean out the packing grease.
    Check the seater plug on your Scenars. Lightly insert one and see if theres any wiggle (you need to look close, feel is probably better) Try a few.
    Upon visual inspection I determined my plug ended too abruptly. I drilled it deeper with an 1/8" drill to allow the tip of the Scenar a void.

    "Maybe" thats what your seeing. Never used a Forster die or press.
     
  9. thefitter

    thefitter Site $$ Contributor

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  10. fullersson

    fullersson B&B Gunworks bbgunworks.com Site $$ Contributor

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    Dirty primer pockets can cause the primer to not seat flush. If some primers seat flush and some do not that could be part of the problem.
     
  11. tripcrow

    tripcrow

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    Take a bullet and polish it up with fine steel wool. Now turn it in the seater cup on your die. Now turn it in your comparator. You'll see roughly where both are touching the bullet and neither will be at the ogive. .The exact position of the ogive will vary a good amount on bullets made in bulk on machines using multiple dies. To help you could sort your bullets for OD, weight, total bearing surface, &/or base to ogive measurement. That'll help get the bullets of the same shape together. But a .003” base to ogive spread isn't that bad for unsorted SMKs. They shouldn't be walking. It should be random.
     
  12. in2deep

    in2deep Site $$ Contributor

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    If the intent is to check the distance from base to ogive in order to seat the bullet at the same place in the rifling each time it seems like our tools (comparators) don't even measure near the area of interest? Maybe we need better comparator inserts that measure lower on the bullet closer to the ogive.
    Also have you checked your tools/technique to see what kind of error you are getting in the measurement repeatadly checking the same bullet and averaging it out could be you have .0015 to start out with.? Switching to the stainless sinclair insert over my prior aluminum inserts increased my accuracy by almost .001 combined with a little technique someone shared about twisting the case in the comparator to get better repeatability.
     
  13. thefitter

    thefitter Site $$ Contributor

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    Yes I have the SS Sinclair and I do the twisting you mentioned.

    fullersson - I use SS media so the primer pockets are very clean. Also after priming I do a feel test to check seating.

    Thanks
     
  14. tom

    tom Site $$ Contributor

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    you don't need to lube them no. but what method are you using to clean the inside of your necks?
     
  15. bozo699

    bozo699 Site $$ Contributor

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    I had the same problem with the same brand Joe.

    thefitter,
    Welcome to the forum, I have read through the replies to your op and there is some very good advice here. I have found the Sinclair and Hornady comparator inserts to be marginal @ best for repeatability. I have found for me I get the best results using a caliper type comparator tool to use two of them back to back for measuring bullets, I try to use the same pressure every time I run the caliper in and out a few times ( the same amount ) and rotate the bullet each time, I repeat this process several times and write down the average measurement then I do this with several more bullets and take a average from them, I will then pick a middle of the row bullet from the pile as long as as the range of lengths wasn't to wide if it was I will separate into dixi cups the different lengths, anyway I take the middle of the row bullet and use it to set my seating die's seating depth. I then remove one of the comparators and measure my loaded rounds the same as I did my bullets. I use several steps and rotate each time use the same pressure each time, do it on several rounds that had bullets of the same length and take a average of that, the average spread shouldn't be much ;) There are better tools for the job IMO and I have improved on the inserts of the sinclair tool to give more of a repeatable measurements without the bullets sticking in the inserts. But for the tools you have you should be able to get the desirable results if you take your time and repeat each of your actions the same.Removing variables in our components is necessary for extreme accuracy, that also includes removing any variables in ourselves and processes.
    Hope some of this may help :)
    Wayne.
     
  16. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen Site $$ Contributor

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    Just out of curiosity, how much neck tension are you using? (Measure necks after sizing and compare to the same cases with bullets seated.)

    Can you feel much difference in resistance, from case to case, when seating bullets?

    Another thing, try some sorting. Put bullets in reloading tray, and make a spreadsheet with bullet numbers in the first column; base of bullet to ogive (measured with a .17 caliber comparitor insert (to simulate where the seating stem will contact the bullet), put base of bullet to ogive (with a .30 caliber insert) in the third column, and the difference between the second and third column measurement for each bullet in the fourth.

    What you will see is the variance in the distance between where the seating stem contacts a bullet and where the rifling would make contact. If every thing else were perfect and uniform, the round to round variations in how far the bullets are off the bullets should be the same as column four.

    Last, you should measure the loaded rounds, as you have been, with the .30 cal insert, from ogive to case head (the back of the case) to see how the variations in seating depth correlate to column three variations.

    Let us know what you find.

    One more thing, use a uniform press handle speed when seating bullets.

    Good luck.
     
  17. TC

    TC

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    I suspect your answer might lie in how you set up your die in the Forster press. Overtighten the allen screw to hold the die in place and it will walk after a few rounds. I've found it best to not tighten it too much to allow the "float" (YOU SAY YOUR DIE IS TIGHT...IT SHOULDN'T BE). Also, not all bullets are identical (we all measure to the ogive but the die seats the bullet from slightly forward of that point so even if the ogive is identical the seating area might not be) even within the same batch as I'm sure you've found out....the .001-2 is fairly normal and it won't make the slightest difference to your groups, especially relative to technique.

    It sounds like you know what you are doing but don't be too OCD about this, you sound a perfectionist and given few bullets/cases are truly identical you will be chasing rainbows for quite a while if you don't just push on. All the best mate.
     
  18. bozo699

    bozo699 Site $$ Contributor

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    TC,
    OCD? and what do you mean the die lock nut shouldn't be tight? Is that something special to coax presses or coax dies?
    Wayne.
     
  19. TC

    TC

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    OCD...obsessive compulsive disorder...just teasing thefitter who it sounds is as particular about his measuirements as me. There comes a point where I think mathematical perfection is virtually impossible to consistently achieve when it comes to shooting and using mass produced products ie bullets.

    The die nut i am referring to can be seen on page 3, phot 3 below. Also, see the three paragraphs to the right of the pic. It is easy to overtigthen that Part #28 (the retaining screw) and as they suggest, Forster cross bolt locking rings work best.

    http://www.forsterproducts.com/client_images/catalog19938/pages/files/Co-Ax_Reloading_Press.pdf
     
  20. bozo699

    bozo699 Site $$ Contributor

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    TC,
    I got it now,thanks.
    I have had OCD for years ??? is there a cure? LOL
    Wayne.
     

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