N135 or 140 temp stability

Discussion in 'Reloading Forum (All Calibers)' started by NortexDM, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. NortexDM

    NortexDM

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    33
    Anyone have any feedback on temp stability on these two in comparison to say the Hodgdon extreme lineup?
     
  2. rangertim

    rangertim Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    276
    I used VV-135 in a 30x47, shot the same load spring Thur fall ! different made a difference in that Barrel with that load !
     
  3. NortexDM

    NortexDM

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    33
    I'm looking to try 135 in 6x47. The cool burning temp is appealing but my temps here can rd ange from 20-115°f so temp stability is fairly crucial as I prefer not to have winter and summer loads.
     
  4. boltfluter

    boltfluter

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,235
    If VV135 is anything like VV133 you will need at least 2 and maybe 3 loads. In my experience the VV powders are very temperature sensitive. Good luck.:D:D

    Paul
     
    AckleymanII likes this.
  5. NortexDM

    NortexDM

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    33

    That seems common for 133 from what I've searched but there is very little on 135. A few say 140 is but some posts are older. I figured with some of today's advancement in tech there might be more info out know.
     
  6. Medic505

    Medic505 Dean Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,053
    I agree with this 100%. A few years ago when H-4895 and Varget was hidden in hoarders closets I shot a lot of VV 140 and VV150. 140 was more temp sensitive than 150. I blew more primers with VV 140 than any other powder I have ever used.
     
    spclark, Laurie and boltfluter like this.
  7. KevinThomas

    KevinThomas

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    763
    Vihtavuori has been addressing the temp stability issue in recent years,and lots that have been produced within the past year or two should be notably less temperature sensitive than older lots. Additionally, they have begun to incorporate a metal fouling reducer that drastically lessen so copper fouling to a very noticeable degree. It’s good stuff all the way around.
     
    barefooter56, Laurie, milanuk and 3 others like this.
  8. Nick Caprinolo

    Nick Caprinolo Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    Messages:
    110
    The company states that all the 100 series is stable at all temps.
     
  9. Medic505

    Medic505 Dean Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,053
    If I was selling it, I'd say that too.
     
    okie, Laurie, Elwood and 3 others like this.
  10. KevinThomas

    KevinThomas

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    763
    They’ve never made any bones about the fact that ALL powders are temp sensitive to one degree or another. I’m going with something being not quite clear in the Finnish/English translation here, and I’m sure they’d tell you that there is some temperature sensitivity present in the N100 series. But it’s been improved pretty substantially in recent production lots.
     
    barefooter56 likes this.
  11. NortexDM

    NortexDM

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    33
    Thanks @Kevin Thomas I assume this is somewhat like alliant supposedly tweaking rl17 for temp stability recently?
     
  12. KevinThomas

    KevinThomas

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    763
    Probably more room for improvement there as the Reloder line is predominantly (all, I believe) of double-based composition. The VV line is single-based, though they do use NG as a coating in the N500 series. I don’t know precisely what Alliant has done with regards to RL-17, so I couldn’t give you a good answer on this.
     
    barefooter56 likes this.
  13. NortexDM

    NortexDM

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    33
    I just meant improving as they move along in growth.
     
    KevinThomas likes this.
  14. steve123

    steve123

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    434
    I wish VV had advertised improvements in their powder lines so I could have been taking advantage of those improvements! I had no idea this was taking place.

    VV has probably missed out on hundreds of thousands of dollars, or even millions, in sales to shooters just like me that feel the same way. I'm a steel shooter so first round hits are top priority! I need temp insensitivity.

    My go to powder has been the Extreme line of Hodgdon but the one thing I don't like about it is the inconsistency in lot variance. Something I think I read somewhere??> that VV had done a better job with.

    Another thing the powder companies should work on is bringing out a cooler flame temp line of powders that are less temp sensitive. I sure would like to get extra barrel life!
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 10:25 AM
  15. Laurie

    Laurie

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,496
    Yes, EVERY powder company says that about its products. For example:


    [​IMG]
    Smokeless medium rifle powder


    The best all-around medium speed rifle powder providing excellent .223 and .308 caliber performance. Selected as the powder for U.S. Military's M118 special ball long range sniper round.

    • Broad caliber range
    • Consistent in all temperatures
    • High velocity varmint loads
    Consistently inconsistent IME. :) (........ and we certainly don't see a 20 to 115-deg F temperature range in the UK, 30-75 would be more like it!)

    Kevin, I'm pleased to see Viht's improvements. (But with the quantities of older supplies I have, I'll likely 'pop my clogs' before I need to top them up. Just some of the new N565 to buy in the near future.)
     
  16. Laurie

    Laurie

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,496
    Viht grades are usually really consistent lot to lot. Most people I know just don't bother retesting and fine-tuning their loads when they buy new supplies here. I must be on my 4th production lot of N165 in 284 with 175s and 180s covering a 10 year production period, and I've never yet had to change my original worked-up loads. Whenever I do a range check / retest, there is no change in groups or MVs worth bothering about.

    I burn a great deal of N160 and N165 these days in 7X57, 7mm-08, 284 Win and a few others. (Bartlein) Barrel life is as good as you're going to get providing loads and pressures are kept reasonable.
     
    barefooter56 likes this.
  17. steve123

    steve123

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    434
    With the Hodgdon E series I have to adjust my loads every time I open a new 8lb jug. I haven't bought 2-3 8lb jugs of the same lot number at the same time, just one 8lb once a year or two.

    I saw that N135 has a pretty low flame temp and is a good burn rate for the 90gr TGK I'm trying in 6mmBR. That'd be great if the temp swings weren't horrible.
     
  18. Laurie

    Laurie

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,496
    I can't advise on this one. I used N135 many years ago in a 223 AR-15 'straight-pull' with 69gn Sierra Mks. MVs and performance were good, but I've barely used this powder since. I did try it in 6BR with my first rifle / barrel in the cartridge with (IIRC) Berger 88s and 90s but results weren't very good.

    The favourite UK Viht powder for the 6BR and 105-108s is N150 which gives superb results. This may seem a strange choice as it looks much slower burning than the usual choices of VarGet or Re15, but we found years ago during one of VarGet's periodic and this case extended absences from our gunshops that the Viht powder not only replaces the Hodgdon product, but outperforms it. (Strangely though, 6 Dasher shooters on this forum say it's not a good choice in the larger capacity variant.) Most British 6BR users load N140 or N150 nowadays. I much prefer it to N140 where they overlap and use it for preference in 308 Win as well as the BR. I did very well with N150 too with the 123gn Lapua Scenar in 260 Rem and 6.5X47L at ~3,000 fps loads from 30-inch barrels, and it will always be my starting point / baseline for 120-130gn bullets in the smaller 6.5s. I even use it sometimes in 223 with 90s in a long-throated chamber.

    I can't talk about temperature and N150 as it certainly has never been an issue for me or anyone I've met and within our 30-75 F or so range, case-filling loads remain very consistent. (I found otherwise with Re15 though in a high-pressure 223/90 F-TR load - use of a small sandwich cool box to hold the ammo box was normal and essential practice whenever temperatures hit or exceeded 20C / 68F.)
     
    steve123 likes this.
  19. KevinThomas

    KevinThomas

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    763
    Steve123,

    This was always a bit of a bone of contention between the Finns, and us here in the US. The Finns are, by nature, a very quiet and reserved people. Americans . . . not so much. Adam and I were pretty vocal about shouting these improvements from the rooftops in sales meetings with them, and they resisted the idea of what they regarded as essentially bragging. We did succeed in eventually getting them to mention it in their advertising, though they still kept it pretty low-key. It’s just how they are; calm, quiet and not at all prone to self-promotion. But yes, they are constantly working on refinements and further perfecting what is already a pretty damned good product.
     
  20. Capt. Oblivious

    Capt. Oblivious

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Messages:
    427
    N140 behind a 105gr in a 6 Dasher is magic.

    Our summer/winter temps probably range between 44 and 95F where we shoot and N140, N150, N160 and N165 perform very well In these temps
     
    barefooter56 and Laurie like this.

Share This Page