My new Savage 12 BTCSS is hording copper

[W.]

I have run the gun through two break in systems and I feel their is still to much fouling at this time. I have got it down to .6 three shot groups using the 50 grain Nosler but I think there is way to much copper for 35 rounds. It takes 3 10 minute cleanings with sweets where my 243 will come clean in 10 minutes. What kind of problems am I causing that I may not understand.


Thank You

W.

God Bless America

 

[savageshooter86]

Savage factory barrel

 

[W.]

What can I do to help the problem?

 

[savagedasher]

JB it Larry

 

[W.]

How much and how long?

 

[Hoier]

A bunch of both. Savage barrels shoot good but they also copper foul something terrible. If you had a borescopes you'd see the rifling in the barrel looks like it was rifled using a chisel.

 

[savagedasher]

How much and how long?

When I build a new gun I lap the leads 500 times. If you don't have a bore scope polish it till it feels smooth. I have found when they chamber the guns the leads are rough as the barrel has not ben lapped. Larry

 

[W.]

Thank you all I will pick up some and let us hope that is all it needs. Like I have said before I have loaded to hunt all my life and was always happy with a 5 shoot group at 100 yards under 1 inch.

 

[savagedasher]

500 strokes with JB sorry. Larry

 

[jonbearman]

If it were mine I would use the tubbs final finish to really fire lap it to smooth the roughness out of that barrel.If it does'nt work get a replacement mcgowen barrel and don't look back.I tried it on a .308 barrel and it worked out real well. It shot substantially better and clean up was easy.Copper did not become an issue after that.You can buy the bullet's to load up at midway,brownell's,or tubbs superiorshootingsystems.com

 

[bigedp51]

Bore scope photos of new Savage rifled barrel.

Throat

Two inches from muzzle, and how do you "break in" speed bumps?

Before and after fire lapping

Fire lapping enlarged. (speed bumps only half gone)

Custom made hand lapped barrel.

Foam bore cleaner used in frosted Enfield barrel. (no brushing and copper is gone)

Ever wonder what a Russian Mosin Nagant (noisy maggot) barrel looks like when Ivan never cleaned the barrel all during WWII. :'( Pitting from corrosive primers and lack of proper cleaning.

A bore brush won't reach into the pitting, BUT foam bore cleaner will remove all the copper without scrubbing.

Subliminal suggestion, fire lap and clean with foam bore cleaner, then save up and buy a custom hand lapped barrel that doesn't eat bullets.

 

[savageshooter86]

That brings back memories of what the speed hump tooling looks like. And also reminds me how smooth the Shilen barrel I had was. I didn't realize it at the time how much better they were(I was brand new into shooting/reloading)

 

[jonbearman]

What foam type bore cleaner did you use Ed?

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

Had the same problem with a factory Savage mod. 12 VLP in 22-250 9tw. Didn't seem to matter what I did or how much I shot it, that barrel would copper horribly! That barrel is now gone and my feelings aren't hurt !

Mike

 

[fdshuster]

from an article in "Precision Shooting".

 

[bigedp51]

What foam type bore cleaner did you use Ed?

I have used three different brands, Gunslick, Break Free and Wipe Out and they all clean about the same. The Finnish developed the product and I think all the manufactures have pay royalties to copy and make the product.

I'm retired and worked at a military depot and saw it being used cleaning field pieces, meaning LARGE artillery barrels. After seeing it being used and the amazing results that night on the way home I picked some up and have using it since.

I collected mil-surp rifles and had a large collection and many had abused pitted and frosted bores. So I developed the less is more cleaning method with the cleaning rod spending as little time as possible in the bore.

As you can see above a new button rifled Savage barrel is VERY rough, when a bore brush is used the rough bore eats the bore brush and can give false readings of copper in the bore. The average person doesn't know this and keeps scrubbing the bore getting nowhere fast.

More barrels are damaged and worn out by improper cleaning than any other reason and foam bore cleaner isn't hard, abrasive or have any sharp edges.

I have two Savage rifles and the cleaning method is simple, the bore is filled with foam with the muzzle tilted downward and the foam is left in overnight to do its work. Then and only then is a cleaning rod used to remove the foam and oil the bore.

Both my factory Savage rifles are very accurate and cleaning with foam removes all the copper. Just remember this, less is more and much of the "blue" you see comes from the bore brush in these button rifled barrels.

As a side note after collecting the British Enfield rifle and associated maintenance manuals and talking to armorures, we "over clean" our barrels. After shooting the British and Commonwealth troops would pore at least two pints of boiling water down the bore. This removed the corrosive priming salts and carbon from the bore and then a pull through with a oiled rag was pulled through the barrel. *During the quarterly inspections the armourers would decide if the copper needed to be removed from the bore and they would then mix up some copper cleaner.

Once one bullet is fired down the "clean" bore the speed bumps and pitting are filled with copper again and this cycle never ends.
Less is more...........................

Lilja BoreScope Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA

 

[bigedp51]

More history on barrel cleaning.

Below is one of my Enfield bore gauges and is a very tight fit in the bore.

If this bore gauge did not pass through end to end in the bore only then was a copper cleaner use to clean the bore.

After taking these photos of the gauge in the bore of this "unissued" No.4 Enfield rifle I tilted the muzzle end up and the gauge didn't pass through the bore. I had just cleaned the bore with one application of foam the night before. I gave the bore another shot of foam and let it sit again. The next day the bore gauge passed end to end and fell into the magazine. All this without a bore brush being used and a "very slight" buildup of copper on top of the lands caused the gauge to bind in the bore.

The "average" person with a factory made barrel "over cleans" the bore and the above "NEW" Enfield barrel had cut rifling and was very smooth.

 

[amamnn]

The good news is that since everyone and his brother know about this problem, everyone and his brother makes replacement barrels that screw right on your action as easy as-well almost as easy as pie. Go to savage shooters dot com and look in the classifieds. There will be many barrels: some really cheap and dealers for the better brands like Shilen and others.

You can also get more help than you want or need to gather tools and learn to do a savage barrel swap by looking in the forum archives on the same site....

 

[savageshooter86]

I am about to throw on a Criterion pre fit barrel. It will take us less than 10 min to do and headspace.

 

[bigedp51]

Ed -

What does that gauge tell you about the bottom of the grooves?
And what if the bore is say .0005 or .001" or larger then the gauge, what does it tell you then?

The gauges are for a military rifle designed to shoot in inches of man and not minutes of an inch. Second, there are five to six bore gauges in the set with the biggest telling you its time to replace the barrel.

From my own cleaning with a bore-scope, the top of the lands clean up much simpler then does the bottom of the grooves and land corners.

And the photo I posted "earlier" of the subject shows you the same thing you are saying now, and a picture is worth a thousand words..

Back on track, what good does it do to try to use a "break in" cleaning method on a button rifled barrel. My posted photos and the Lilja BoreScope Video answer that question...............its a waste of time.

And bores like these eat bore brushes and leave more copper in the bore to turn blue. I do not own any custom hand lapped barrels and my information is based on factory and milsurp rifles. The barrel in my Enfield gauge photo was cut rifling and made to strict military standards. Meaning the Enfield barrel was better made than button rifled barrels made today.