Mosin Nagant to .223?

Discussion in 'Gun Project Questions & Gunsmithing' started by 223Randy, Oct 1, 2017.

  1. 223Randy

    223Randy

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    What would it take to re-barrel a mosin nagant to a .223?

    1.turn barrel to match mosin
    2.change bolt to accept a .223 cart.. -- this seems like the biggest issue

    Has anyone done this?
     
  2. jfseaman

    jfseaman Silver $$ Contributor

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    Anything is possible if you are willing to spend the time and money.

    Yes. My gunsmith used rebarreling a Mosin to train his apprentice.

    There are going to be a number of comments saying it's not worth it without providing explanation.

    It depends on your goals.

    Can you state why you would use a Mosin vs something else?
     
  3. Kurz

    Kurz

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    223Randy,

    This is one of those questions when asked on a forum such as this, becomes a slippery slope to answer. So my first answer is to find a forums dedicated to the Mosin Nagant and open a discussion there.

    In the spirit of trying to answer your question here first before sending you off elsewhere, I will offer this information:

    Rock Solid will supply services:

    https://www.rocksolidind.com/
    (services)

    Apex can supply parts:

    https://www.apexgunparts.com/rifles/bolt-action/mosin-nagant.html
    (parts)

    The original rim diameter of the 7.62x54R cartridge is 0.570" while the .223 Rem. rim diameter is 0.378", a decidedly big difference. But, the Nagant uses interchangeable bolt noses so you can have a small part to experiment with as opposed to working on the whole bolt. In essence, a small part can be sacrificed instead of the the whole bolt.

    upload_2017-10-1_8-17-48.png

    Push comes to shove, a new bolt nose can be made but at a significant increase in cost.

    The original cartridge is a rimmed case so the magazine and feeding system is based on this. The .223 Rem. case is rimless and much smaller in diameter so constructing a new magazine feeding system will be a tad pricey as well.

    The bottom line is this; cheap, older military rifles do not necessarily make for great conversions due to the expense of that conversion. Now you might find someone who has more time than good sense and will take something like this on, but I wouldn't bet on it.

    Bottom, bottom line; PTG is offering Howa 1500 barreled action for $250.00 in .223 Rem. That would be my solution.

    Good Luck with your project!
     
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  4. akajun

    akajun

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    You will also have to come up with a new magazine/ feed system.
    Fyi I converted a mosin with a trashed barrel and stock to 45/70 for a hog killing gun to use with a suppressor. Not an easy project.
     
  5. Ggmac

    Ggmac

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    Almost Anything is possible , WHY ? You could buy 2-3 commercial guns for what you will have in a maybe repeater rifle that still needs scope , bolt handle mods , stock extractor , feed , and a faster , lighter lock time .
    Again WHY ?
     
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  6. tobnpr

    tobnpr

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    I rebarrel a lot of MN's...it's a niche I'm comfortable with. Finns and Soviets/Russians have built military and target competion rifles on them forever. Something about building one that shoots 1/2 minute to shut up the rifle snobs that gives me a special type of "satisfaction". I have 4 in the shop now, two in .311, one with .308 bore (preferred for handloaders), and one in .44 Mag. Looking at a .50 Alaskan...

    I have not done it (yet), but know someone that has in .223- milled out the extractor cut in the bolthead to allow it to seat deeper and grip the case. I have no idea if he was able to get it to feed from the mag. Many were redone (unsafely by setting back the breech of the military barrels and rechambering) in .30-06, modified ejector. Longer cases are more suited for this action .

    As stated, not cheap just like rebarreling a 700 or Savage 10- plus the extractor cut- so definitely a project for those that want something different.
     
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  7. 223Randy

    223Randy

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    Answer a few of the posts so far

    I have a Mosin that i have already worked on, Boyds thumbhole stock, bedded action, cut barrel and muzzle break, have a 2nd one that is a nice original, will leave it original. .223 take offs are fairly inexpensive, i will do my own work, have a lathe, and access to a Bridgeport. Just trying to get a list of the issues to see if i want to do this or not. NOT debating IF it should or SHOULD not be done.

    So far i can add to my list
    Bolt work - modify bolt to accept and eject a .223
    Barrel work - i am thinking modify a .223 take off to fit the mosin. i already have a reamer.
    Modify \make mag hold and release .223

    I know call me crazy, sometimes i just want to do something that is NOT main stream.
     
  8. Ggmac

    Ggmac

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    It a project for sure and one that will not cost much . If you know how to thread , it could be possible . I don't think savage or Rem take offs will have enough meat to rethread for the mosins , I think .980- 14 , but that's from memory no coffee yet .
     
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  9. people

    people

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    What would be interesting is doing work to the original barrel to allow a 223 liner to be fit inside. As to bolt work you might be able to get a replacement bolt. Then just open it up like you were to bush the firing pin and set the new bolt face in for 223. The extractor should not be too hard.

    What would be interesting is getting it to feed. Maybe something like a M4 ramp would be needed.
     
  10. Ggmac

    Ggmac

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    M-4 ramp , really . A bolt face could be recessed a little to create a lip and the extractor extended , a liner is useless in a high pressure cartridge AND using a .311 bore . More work than fitting a barrel . Back to m-4 ramps , the Mosin has no barrel extension and the mag doesn't need to be detachable and a std feed ramp should work , meaning one feed ramp not 2 extending into a non existing barrel extension . Getting it to feed from a single feed ramp should be ok if the bolt will pickup a round from the mag if not a Mossberg style lip may be fitted .
    Bolt could also have a ring silver soldered in . Firing pin will need work and bolt bushed for the smaller dia.

    Back to the " Finns and Russians have been doing this for decades , well yes they have , cause very few other rifles are available and after all the work required , they can make them shoot large rimmed or magnum cases as well as a $250 savage axis .
    Sorry for the attitude , just been watching too many talking heads on this horrible mass senseless shooting .
     
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  11. 223Randy

    223Randy

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    Yes i think we all agree that what happened last night was horrible! Thoughts and Prayers to all affected!

    If the thread is .980-16 there should be no problem threading a small shank .223 savage take off, i think it will require barrel nut as it would not have a shoulder left. A large shank would have both. It make it a barrel nut gun? Still looking for info to decide if i will tackle this, and which barrel to start with.

    Anyone have a ..223 large shank take off for reasonable price for the project?

    Thanks for all the help so far, ideas welcome.

    Randy
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
  12. Ggmac

    Ggmac

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    Some mosins have an internal stop , not quite a c ring like a Mauser ,but enough to not need a nut .
    The problem with using savage std shank barrels is that they aren't always centered in the rolled threads . So you're left with even less to work with.
    Now making one in 45 long colt , with a $50 green mountain barrel is a project worth effort . Much more short range thump and easy to suppress .
     
  13. Shawnba67

    Shawnba67 Silver $$ Contributor

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    I would like to hear more about this 45 colt idea
     
  14. tobnpr

    tobnpr

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    Rem 700 take-off.
    Easy and cheap to find.
    Minor diameter of the 700 threads will clean up to the MN tenon diameter, you'll need to set back and deepen the chamber to get rid of the bolt nose recess.

    Consider playing with one of the older style one-piece ejectors to see if it can be modified to work.
     
  15. tobnpr

    tobnpr

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    Seems most of the ones I've been getting in to rebarreling of late are the earlier receivers. All MN receivers prior to WWII had this inner ring. It was deleted to speed production in '42 (IIRC). Made the machining much simpler and faster.

    Problem sometimes is that with lug wear and receiver abutment setback it can be impossible to get tight headspace on a new barrel. If I need only a few thou I'll usually try to swap out the customer's bolthead (have a box full) for one that'll decrease headspace by what I need. Alternative is to make a light relief cut around the breech so that it'll clear the inner ring.
     
  16. Ggmac

    Ggmac

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    Why not recut the barrel or deepen the chamber ? Your confusing me , quoting my post about using a green mountain 45 barrel blank . They are large enough for a proper shoulder . It's not nice to confuse an old man !
     
  17. tobnpr

    tobnpr

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    Sorry, I get the AARP crap in the mail too...
    .45 Colt is rimmed as well, so your headspace is determined by the back face of the breech. Matters not how deep the chamber is, it could go to Timbuktu and it wouldn't change headspace. Facing the tenon to length sets the headspace, done first and reaming the chamber is the last thing I do.

    Lug setback and abutments wear increases headspace (obviously). If you can't screw the barrel in far enough to set minimum headspace due to the inner ring acting as a "stop" you need to work around it as I described. I always shoot for "go" + .001

    If the receiver lacks the inner ring "stop" this issue can't occur.
     
  18. Ggmac

    Ggmac

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    I see , but I use a coned barrel cut long , chamber last . No need to R&R barrels , so when I run the reamer in it cut to the thickest rim I'd be using .
    If you haven't tried a coned breech , it's nice , I've been doing it on straight walled cartridges in centerfire and rimfire for 25plus yrs . No extractor timing cuts . The only time you need to watch yourself is with certain rimfire firing pin location . Even then the fp just needs to be trimmed as to not hit the barrel . Something that's usually done anyway .
     
  19. Ggmac

    Ggmac

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    My way around the inner stop is a slightly longer stub , smaller in dia than the stub . I can say I've needed to trim the inner stop , just to clean up the seat .
    Hope this makes sense , long hot day . Laying on heating pad already .
    Gary
     
  20. shortgrass

    shortgrass

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    I just can't bring myself to work on or 'experiment' with Mosin Nagants.. I much prefer to have whatever I work on be worth something after putting my time and effort into it!
     
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