Maybe you guys can help me with my rifle.

Discussion in 'Main Message Board' started by dieselgeek, Jul 5, 2013.

  1. dieselgeek

    dieselgeek

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    Hey, I've mainly lurked on this forum, as I shoot mostly long range practical/tactical matches.

    I've ran into a bit of a problem I can't seem to figure out. The latest lot of hybrids I have don't seem to group consistently worth a flip.

    I'll try and give you as much information as I can.

    My rifle has a .294 neck.
    I've used Lapua brass (neck turned)
    Rem Brass
    and Nosler brass.

    I use a .288-.289 redding ti bushings

    I know when I slop a shot, and don't feel like that's the case here (outside what's marked) I normally shoot 5 shot groups, (some are in the photo) but I was just trying to see what's closest. When I do shoot I get "3 & 2" groups from the hybrids. It's like it goes back and forth, not just 123 12.

    These shots are at 100 yards, but notice how the amax hammers and the VLDs don't stray. I have about 1200-1300 rounds down this barrel. (.260 remington) my load is 43g H4350 with FGMM primers.

    Please let me know if you know any more information. I really don't want to just burn the barrel trying to get on track, and I have 1500 more of these bergers left :/

    [​IMG]
     
  2. jonbearman

    jonbearman I live in new york state,how unfortunate ! Gold $$ Contributor

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    What 6.5 cartridge are you shooting? What kind of gun and how is the barrel throated. How do you determine how far off the lands?
     
  3. Erik Cortina

    Erik Cortina Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain Silver $$ Contributor

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    Your gun is out of tune. Adjust seating depth by moving bullet .003" at a time until accuracy and consistency return.
     
  4. dieselgeek

    dieselgeek

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    .260 rem built by Short Action Customs. SAC 11 Action, Bartlien barrel 1:8 twist.



    I used a bullet comparator to measure from the ogive, and I use the Hornady gauge to see how far I am off the lands.


    BTW do I have to type in all this crap everytime I want to make a post?
     
  5. dieselgeek

    dieselgeek

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    When you seat your bullets do you adjust the die for each one? I'm using a forester micrometer die.
     
  6. Erik Cortina

    Erik Cortina Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain Silver $$ Contributor

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    Yes, load 5 shots, then move seater .003", then load another 5, and so on.
     
  7. dieselgeek

    dieselgeek

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    Sorry, I don't think you understood my question.

    If I grab 5 hybrids and load 5 of them with out moving the die I get different measurements. Not large, but they are not all the same.

    I was wondering if you adjust the die for each bullet to get the same measurement from the ogive.
     
  8. sdeal5

    sdeal5

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    Much easier and quicker if you sort your bullets first. Go thru them until you have enough of them with the same base to ogive measurement to do your testing. These should all seat the same (or close to it), and is much easier than adjusting seater die for each individual one. In a box of hybrids, you will probably have one predominant measurement to work with. The ones that vary greatly, I usually use for foulers or sighters. Good luck.
     
  9. Preacher

    Preacher Gold $$ Contributor

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    You never need to reset the die for each bullet...
    Maybe your seater stem is bottoming out on the tips, and they are never the same..
     
  10. lrgoodger

    lrgoodger

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    Distance from cartridge base to ogive should be the same every time without adjusting your seater. Possible problem areas are inconsistency in the press or a compressed powder load with light neck tension. I use a K&M arbor press with Wilson seaters. I've had compressed loads push the bullet back up if neck tension was not enough to resist the pressure from the powder load (Tony Boyer talks about that in his book). That will certainly get you differing lengths because of variations in neck tension and pressure from the powder load pushing each bullet up a different amount.

    One problem I have had with the Wilson seaters, depending on which one I am using, is that the bullet will sometimes stick in the seating cup and if I am running light neck tension, pulling the cartridge out of the cup will move the bullet slightly. I assume that problem could crop up with any seater where the bullet/seater cup shape combination results in a bullet sticking in the cup.

    Sorting bullets will not change the base to ogive measurement. That will only affect how much bullet is in the case below the ogive, but with bullets that vary a lot (which the hybrids don't, in my experience) it is an important consideration.

    How much base to ogive variation are you seeing?
     
  11. Jet

    Jet Gold $$ Contributor

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    DieselGeek

    I shoot two 260 rifles in local 600 yd matches and use the Berger 140 hybrid target bullets. At 100-200 yd Lapua Scenars and Sierra HPBT out perform the Bergers but when the distances are extended the Bergers shoot better.

    If you have the ability to do load testing at further distances I would recommend you try that and see what your results are.

    Also, your question
    "Sorry, I don't think you understood my question.

    If I grab 5 hybrids and load 5 of them with out moving the die I get different measurements. Not large, but they are not all the same.

    I was wondering if you adjust the die for each bullet to get the same measurement from the ogive".

    Set the seater die (I use the same one you do) for the desired depth and don't adjust it until you want to make a change in seating depth. You will see some variances even after sorting bullets. Don't get caught up chasing these around. Make sure the inside of your die is clean.

    Good luck

    Jet
     
  12. lrgoodger

    lrgoodger

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    Judging by your targets, I agree with Erik. Your amax load is in tune. The hybrid load is not. Minor differences in seating depth won't account for what is on your target. Different brands of bullets of the same weight may or may not shoot the same with the same load. Bullets of different weights will almost always go to a different POI because they exit the barrel at a different point in the vibration cycle.
     
  13. butchlambert

    butchlambert Site $$ Sponsor

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    Preacher is right as far as seating. Erik is right about your tune. Methinks you have 2 problems.
     
  14. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen

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    I would put out some sticks with surveyor's tape tied to their tops, to observe what the wind is doing, make the best guess that I could as to a likely seating depth, and test slight differences in powder charge until I found what THOSE bullets seemed to like the best, and then go back and play with seating depth. I would do this testing. loading at the range, and not try five shot groups until three shots looked good. It would all be done in a short morning. It has been my observation that if a small number of shots look ugly, that adding more does nothing to improve the situation. On the other hand, once something looks like it has potential, more shots are needed to confirm.
     
  15. dieselgeek

    dieselgeek

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    Wanted to say thank you to everyone that replied. It means a lot , I shot some more today before reading this, VLDs also jumped. I guess I need to get some AMAXes and give them a try. I have another lot of bergers, I guess I could try them as well. I don't think my load is compressed, and I don't think my micrometer die is sticking to my hybrids. I'll give that a look for sure.
     
  16. NateHaler

    NateHaler Silver $$ Contributor

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    Me, I say keep it simple. Sell the hybrids. Including your car, if you drive a hybrid. ;)

    Shoot the AMAX bullets. Spend more time reading conditions and building good position habits, and less time at the loading bench measuring every damn thing and wondering what the heck might be the result.

    Carl Bernosky shoots AMAX loads. He's not a bad role model. ;D
     
  17. butchlambert

    butchlambert Site $$ Sponsor

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    I don't know if it is actually affecting his groups, bit I'm not sure he understands preacher's post on his seater stem.
     
  18. dieselgeek

    dieselgeek

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    I do understand it, I'm pretty sure it's not sticking to it, and if anything I've felt like I had to much neck tension, so it would not be springing back after pushing it in, or get pulled out because of it sticking. At least the way I see it.
     
  19. butchlambert

    butchlambert Site $$ Sponsor

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    I think what he is saying that the stem on your seater could be working on the tip of your bullet rather than closer to the ogive. I think this is the only reason you would have the seating depth problem other than the compressed load deal that you say is not a problem. Within reason I don't care about overall length of my rounds, only that they are the same from the base of the cartridge to the ogive.
     
  20. CVH

    CVH

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    I am probably out-knowledged here, but as far as seating depth, I ran into the same thing with a whole pile of old 105 VLD's dumped together, What I finally resorted to was seating everything long, say .010-.015 then measuring and segragating and turning my die down accordingly. Kind of an ass backwards way of sorting, but it works, it would be a much simpler world if the seater stem was bore diameter instead of some arbitrary size.
     

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