Looking for a new caliber.

Discussion in 'Varminter & Hunting Forum' started by Westhunder, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. MarkS

    MarkS Silver $$ Contributor

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    They hold all but one record in IBS 600 Benchrest, and have set many before the current records, 3 were set by me with a 6mmBRX.

    Mark Schronce
     
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  2. gunsandgunsmithing

    gunsandgunsmithing The best tuners and wind flags on the market Gold $$ Contributor

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    They can be made to feed from a bdl with some tweaking. I've built several 6BR repeaters. I never felt like I could call them 100% reliable, though. Close, but not 100% over time. Maybe others can. Yes, a dbm can be used and make a worthwhile improvement, IMHO.

    It's still a 6mm though, and again, JMHO, but I feel like a 6mm is a tad light for deer size animals. Sure, they'll do the job and I'm sure many have used them and never lost an animal. That's great and I have no problem with what anyone else uses. Many a deer killed with various 6mm cartridges. It's just that I prefer something a little bigger. JMHO though, so lets not debate that.
     
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  3. Ledd Slinger

    Ledd Slinger Gold $$ Contributor

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    Agreed. I know 6mm will work just fine on deer. I have killed them with a 243 when I was young. But I do prefer a minimum caliber of 6.5mm for hunting game big game animals. I just personally like the heavier bullet offerings of the 6.5 and larger calibers for that extra punch. The higher BC's of the larger caliber heavy bullets also help to maintain that energy much better down range.
     
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  4. gunsandgunsmithing

    gunsandgunsmithing The best tuners and wind flags on the market Gold $$ Contributor

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    Yes, and typically a better blood trail, too. This debate is ageless though and it just is what it is. We aren't going to settle it on here.

    And I agree with Mark on the accuracy. Very few cartridges that are suitable for hunting can match a 6BR in terms of accuracy, but some can get close, and I think it's safe to say that I can't shoot the difference from a tree. :)
     
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  5. JRS

    JRS

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    For the typical hunting in the U.S. bullet weight matters very little, as long as you are using a suitable caliber with enough SD, proper bullet construction for the type of animal you are hunting, and most of all, proper bullet placement on the animal. "Bigger is better" was the military and African game hunters way of thinking just a hundred years or so ago. My, how things have changed since then;)

    Though it would be nice, bench rest accuracy for hunting isn't necessary. The properly placed first shot is the one that counts, and the target area on a deer offers room for less than bench rest accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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  6. gunsandgunsmithing

    gunsandgunsmithing The best tuners and wind flags on the market Gold $$ Contributor

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    For some reason MOAB comes to mind, though.

     
  7. joed49

    joed49

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    No one cartridge does everything well. And it would be a pretty boring life if something like this did exist. Every cartridge out there from .243 to .30-06 can shoot to 600 yards, has varmint bullets available and is capable of taking down a deer.

    You have to take into account the rifle that is going to shoot it too. There are rifles designed for bench rest shooting, varmint shooting, light weight for hunting lots of acres. Heavy barrels, light barrels and med barrels.

    Good luck. This is one of the reasons my safe has varmint rifles, stalking rifles, target rifles and lever action for dense woods, all in different cartridges. A do-it-all rifle may do it all but there will be some sacrifice involved.

    One of my teachers had a saying "You don't get something for nothing", which seems to apply to a lot of things in life.

    You may find a happy medium. But as soon as you do one of your friends will come up with a hunt that leaves you wondering about your choice. I have the Tshirt and a few rifles to verify this.
     
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  8. markT

    markT Silver $$ Contributor

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    A couple of questions: what is SD? From JRS reply?
    "My, how things have changed." ... yes they have.. I would pose this: what if those "friendly nice young men" in Chicago were using varmint boolits to settle their disagreements? What do you think the mortality rate would be then?
    Not sure you guys, but I think this cold weather has me just about over the edge. Luckily I get to drive to FL tomorrow for business.
     
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  9. Westhunder

    Westhunder Please excuse typos, sent from my iPhone. Gold $$ Contributor

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    I have plenty of rifles in plenty of calibers to focus on every aspect of “hunting”. I don’t have any target rifles or calibers, but I also don’t target/competition shoot, nor do I foresee doing that in the best future. Although this varmit target competition does look pretty cool. Im any outdoors man and get into a lot of different things. I have a truck gun or two for taking those coyotes out when I see them on the road while working. (Contractor, I live out of my truck) so yes I would love to shoot and piddling and fill a second huge safe full of guns for different things. Plus I just like cool guns. But I want a caliber, that I can spend the time I do have on. That can fill the role of a couple three different rifles in one gun. Three or four different loads billet combos. I love the idea of a switch barrel gun too. Always wanted one. But I’m not trying to complicate the point of this OP. So keep the chatter coming so I can figure out a good round to accomplish this with. I used to do a lot of deer hunting with my 223. Aimed for the ear. In my younger years I looked at it like a clean kill or a clean miss. And no wasted meat. But I was hunting at a buddies farm one day and helping him cull some does and saw where someone doing the same thing I was, hit a doe in the lower jaw and she could not eat. Looked terrible. And was going to die of starvation if I hadn’t been there to kill her. So from then on I haven’t done that again. However I believe a 6mm/.243 is ample to kill a deer with proper shot placement. I’m not by any mean stating that this is the size bullet I’m settling on but I’m not going to rule that out. Others did state that 6.5 is min. state requirements in their states, which is good to keep in mind if I travel with rifle to hunt.
     
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  10. fyrewall

    fyrewall

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    This is sort of like women's fashions - what's in today is out next year - way out.

    My preferences would be > 6.5 CM, .260 Rem, .260 AI, & 6.5X47 Lapua.

    I re-barreled one of my rifles to a 6.5-47 Lapua and when I did this I selected the rifle that had the best centered primer firing pin hit among my several candidates. Possibly, with a small primer vs large and/or high pressures near 64K psi there might be issues with a sloppy bolt firing pin fit, requiring some bushing job.

    The 6.5 bullets range from long pointy 140+ grains to 95 and under varmint bullets & many 120's & 123's. My 6.5 Lapua gets over 3100 fps with 95's & 100 (Hornady 95 Vmax, & 100 ELD) and over 2650 with 140's. Same with my .260. The fit would be deers, exploding on varmints, & target use at 600 & possibly more. Any of the above would work.

    This would be far more fun than waiting at the department store for some fashion selection.
     
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  11. JRS

    JRS

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    SD = Sectional Density.

    Jack O'Conner loved the .270 for the most part due to the SD of the .270. A .270 130 grain bullet has roughly the same SD as a 165 grain .30 caliber bullet. If the same critter were shot with both bullets, they would each penetrate the same distance, but the .270 wouldn't kick nearly as much. For a 6.5 bullet to equal the SD of a 25 caliber 115 grain bullet, the 6.5 bullet would have to weight roughly 130 grains, which results in more recoil, and both would penetrate the same distance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  12. Westhunder

    Westhunder Please excuse typos, sent from my iPhone. Gold $$ Contributor

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    You learned me something new.

    Just looked this up...

    .264" (6.5mm) 160 grain, SD .328

    Wow! And as a comparison


    • .277" (.270) 140 grain, SD .261
      .277" (.270) 150 grain, SD .279
      .284" (7mm) 150 grain, SD .266
      .284" (7mm) 154 grain, SD .273
      .284" (7mm) 160 grain, SD .283
      .308" (7.62mm) 170 grain, SD .256
      .308" (7.62mm) 180 grain, SD .271
      .312" (.303) 180 grain, SD .266
      .323" (8mm) 200 grain, SD .274
      .338" (.338) 200 grain, SD .250
      .338" (.338) 210 grain, SD .263
      .338" (.338) 225 grain, SD .281
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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  13. markT

    markT Silver $$ Contributor

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    "Learnt" me too.
     
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  14. Westhunder

    Westhunder Please excuse typos, sent from my iPhone. Gold $$ Contributor

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    based on above data... what cartridge will push a 6.5mm 160 gr bullet as well as a varmit bullet. Or is that even possible with rifle twist rate? Bc that “SD” is higher than a .338
     
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  15. JRS

    JRS

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    The twist rates would be different, as would the powder you burn. A 120 grain 25 caliber bullet has a SD of 260;)

    You'll also need a case with enough boiler room to push the 160.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  16. joed49

    joed49

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    Now I have a better understanding of what the use will be. I have a few rifles in the safe but of all of them I have to say my favorite is a Rem 700 in .25-06. I've used this rifle for shooting groundhogs, hunting deer and even took it bear hunting in Canada. I limit my shooting to 600 yards as I just don't think hunting ranges beyond that are practical.

    I also have a .243 and I think it's a great cartridge. I do a lot of hunting with it but for something like a deer I'd use the .25-06 as I feel the .243 is marginal. If I didn't have the .25 I'd want a 6.5 for deer.
     
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  17. Pulpit

    Pulpit

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    I have two 6BR repeaters built on Rem 700 actions that feed reliably. I do not have hundreds much less thousands of rounds down either barrel to verify like other cartridges though.

    Using the spacer kit for the AICS mags work well for me. I tried Wyatt mags and did not have success.
     
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  18. gunsandgunsmithing

    gunsandgunsmithing The best tuners and wind flags on the market Gold $$ Contributor

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    As you've likely found, or already knew...SD is a way of quantifying a bullet of a given weight and length's ability to penetrate well. The 6.5 cal bullets are generally very good here, as are the 7mm bullets. Of course, bullet construction plays a pretty big role in this too.

    Where did you even find a 160gr 6.5 cal bullet? I'm not sure that I have ever seen one.

    Regardless, it's at the extreme in terms of SD in a 6.5 cal bullet, without regard for velocity and bullet construction.

    If you plan to push bullets that heavy in a 6.5 anything, I'd lean toward a larger case than most mentioned here.

    If it was just at the extreme and you used it as an example, I'd back off of the extreme sd and compare more practical bullets for whatever cases/calibers you are leaning toward. Velocity, mag length and neck length are factors I'd consider mostly here.

    A shorter case will be more magazine friendly with long bullets but won't likely push them as fast as they might like. This can hugely affect the bullets terminal performance, regardless of its SD.

    That brings us back to the point of there not really being a "perfect" cartridge, speed and bullet...for all ranges and animals.

    SD is important though and is a good factor to consider when deciding on what caliber will work best for your needs.

    It's why I do consider a 6.5 as a better caliber for something like elk, than say a .270 Winchester..given practical bullet weights per caliber. Case in point, look at a 140gr 6.5 vs a 140 gr .277 cal, or even a 180 gr 30 cal. Recoil becomes a consideration at some point and it's hard to beat the 6.5 and 7mm stuff in terms of SD, BC and everything else, for that matter.

    FWIW, my "do everything" hunting rifle is a .280 AI. I love it! It shoots great and gets the job done on the other end. It's a little bigger than what I'd call ideal for varmint and target use though. But it will do both well.

    As was mentioned earlier, if you want any gun to be the best it can be at anything, it really should be very "purpose built" and everything else really is a compromise. But, if you choose wisely, you don't give up much anywhere. Much being a relative term.
     
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  19. hogpatrol

    hogpatrol Gold $$ Contributor

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  20. gunsandgunsmithing

    gunsandgunsmithing The best tuners and wind flags on the market Gold $$ Contributor

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    Ok. That makes sense, as they make some very heavy for caliber bullets and cater to the "really" big game market...like cape buffalo and shit. I didn't look at the price but I bet they're not priced like most everything else. None of their bullets are.

    I built a .416 Rem Mag for a guy a few years back that he said liked them. It was a switch barrel, .338 Win Mag/.416 Rem Mag. He has taken it to Africa, I do believe.

    I found a couple of pics. It was a nice rifle.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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