Labradar at Highpower matches

Discussion in 'Competition Forum (All Calibers)' started by Keith Glasscock, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. Keith Glasscock

    Keith Glasscock True believer - Straight 284 Gold $$ Contributor

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    With the advent of Labradar, a new question comes up. Is it legal to use in a highpower match? From the rulebook on electronic devices:

    3.22 Electronic Devices

    Competitors are responsible to ensure that all electronic communications and audio devices in their possession forward of the Ready Line are silenced and communication disabled.
    (a) During team matches only, team members may communicate with each other via
    communications devices. These communication devices must only be capable of
    communicating with other team members, and must not interfere with safety, range
    operations, or other competitors.
    NOTE: Communications between the line and the pit during team matches is forbidden.

    From what I can tell, they are legal. Does anyone have another rulebook reference that says they are not?

    IMG_1016.JPG

    The next question is whether they constitute an advantage, or more succinctly phrased, should I have one? For those F-class competitors using them, do you see an advantage in one-the-spot decision making? I can see the advantage in taking velocity recordings to understand the temperature sensitivity of powder, effectiveness of loading techniques, etc..
     
  2. Joe Salt

    Joe Salt Silver $$ Contributor

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    Keith yes they are legal! All it does is help you with velocity, your ES. or it may tell you if you have a flyer say in your string you have one that 50 fps slower. Been using mine at the PA. 1000 yard range and no complaints yet. First Kid on the block with mine.

    Joe Salt
     
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  3. dmoran

    dmoran Donovan Moran Silver $$ Contributor

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    Joe -

    Two different disciplines from 1000-BR to Highpower. There targets get pulled, marked, and scored for each shot. An ES jump on the chronograph that also gets marked high or low on the target, and they would know it wasn't there hold or wind. Which to me would be giving them an advantage.

    Where your target in BR is not pulled, marked, or scored until your complete record string has been shot.

    Now if the LabRadar data output screen was covered or blinded to the shooter, then they could have the "after data" with out possible advantages during a record string, and not be communicating velocity data to the shooter.

    Just my 2-Cents
    Donovan
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2016
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  4. Jay Christopherson

    Jay Christopherson Administrator

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    I don't see an advantage (FWIW, one of the Labradar's pictured there is mine, so I'm a bit biased).

    I get Donovan's remark about how it might relate back to your hold or wind - but, so far, in practice, I haven't seen that sort of advantage. I can't point to a single instance (having used it in a few matches now), where I changed what I was going to do, based on the MV reading that it gave me for my last shot.

    For one thing, when "I'm in the zone", I don't look at it. At all - in fact, I forget it's even there. Now, if I get a shot that doesn't fall where I expect it to (meaning, way off from my call/hold), I might look over if there is vertical involved. Still, I don't see any advantage while firing. If someone told me I couldn't use it at a match, I wouldn't put up any sort of fuss. It's interesting to review the data, but that's all, IMO.

    I think that as more people use them to collect data under real match conditions, over 60 shot strings (instead of the usual 5 or 10 shot test strings that people seem to use to measure their loads), the conversations about ES and SD are going to change. Interesting things happen when you have a much larger sample size.

    EDIT: I'd also be perfectly fine with Donovan's suggestion (and it's been suggested at matches as well) to cover the screen so that the live data cannot be read. It's the sum total that I'm after.
     
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  5. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222

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    For me, it would be interesting to have the data for better diagnosing vertical spread. It's easy to blame the velocity. It would be nice to know for sure.

    It would also be nice to have the velocity data on some of these hot July and August days so we're not just guessing.
     
  6. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222

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    Good point, it wasn't a match, but the guy in the lane next to me was triggering my LabRadar once every 5th shot or so recently. I had my trigger level set to the most sensitive setting (1, I think) to pick up my shots reliably, but then it was picking up his also (.223 with a brake). Fortunately, his muzzle velocities were low (short barrel), so it was easy enough to separate out his data from mine.

    Not ideal for sure, but simple enough to delete the extra data points in the after-action analysis.
     
  7. Joe Salt

    Joe Salt Silver $$ Contributor

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    EDIT: I'd also be perfectly fine with Donovan's suggestion (and it's been suggested at matches as well) to cover the screen so that the live data cannot be read. It's the sum total that I'm after.

    Donovan I don't understand what you are trying to say? If you should have a reading that 20fps lower or higher. What would you do with the next shot "hold". That round is gone, you can't hold for the next one. It might come back to where it was as an average.

    Tom our benches are 15 feet apart and I have not had a problem.

    Joe Salt
     
  8. Jay Christopherson

    Jay Christopherson Administrator

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    He's saying that it gives you a point of data on certain types of un-expected impacts - for example, let's say that drop a point at 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock, but you broke your shot center where you've been nailing X's. You check the Labradar and see that the velocity on that last shot was 50fps higher (or lower) and well outside of the average. Odds are that the follow up shot will be back in your average. Without the feedback, you might be questioning your hold or perhaps conditions on that shot, which normally would cause you to make an adjustment, but now you have the Labradar showing you that the odds are likely that it was an ES flyer and that it's probably not something you need to adjust for.

    Another scenario might be the same situation - but this time, you check your Labradar and see that velocity is precisely what it should be. In this case, you won't dismiss the shot as an ES flyer and can look at other potential causes such as condition or position. Whereas without that concrete data, you might have just dismissed it as an ES flyer and would fail to make a position or condition adjustment.

    The point is, is that it eliminates a variable from the equation during the match string, that might cause you to change (or not change) something that you normally might. You are getting purely objective feedback on each shot, that other shooters are not.

    In my case, I have not found it to be so - I think it's too distracting to use in that way, but I can see the argument for it.
     
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  9. Joe Salt

    Joe Salt Silver $$ Contributor

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    Jay I understand that part, but you would still be guessing. I had one with a higher velocity that went low, and you are right it would be a distraction. All I use it for is a rereference, to see were my velocity is if I should change something. Or if I'm out of the ball park with my load.

    Joe Salt
     
  10. dmoran

    dmoran Donovan Moran Silver $$ Contributor

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    Joe -

    If I was at a F-Class Match (Highpower) and had a LabRadar setup and fire a shot aimed at the X and it drops to say a low 10-ring and the LabRadar says it went say 15-fps slower then my average, I would not "chase the spotter disk" and would hold for the X again on my next shot.

    Not that it always would, but it could give someone an advantage at times. It would be a form of communicating to the shooter(s) what could be happening on there target during there record string, there for be an advantage -IMO

    Again, just my 2-Cents
    Donovan
     
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  11. JFM33

    JFM33 Silver $$ Contributor

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    You would be better off getting a letter from the NRA then you you would know for sure.I could see some folks who would protest it .Like Donovan said it could be used to help your scores in fact that is what I liked about shooting on e-target that give the velocity.
    I was shooting XTC in July ,sling irons 600yrd line jacket 98* and I pulled out a battery powered fan and was told if I used it my scores would not count "no electronic devices on the firing line".
    Good luck
    John
     
  12. Heman

    Heman

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    At one of our matches an f-class shooter asked if he could set his up. I told him sure. It didn't give him an advantage at all he was just collecting data. Now this was a registered club match. If it was a regional or state championship I may have taken another view but either way it isn't helping the shooter figure out what he needs to do to shoot an X. It is just giving data after he has pulled the trigger. No different than seeing a shot spotter or a display readout on a tablet with etargets.
     
  13. BartsBullets

    BartsBullets Gold $$ Contributor

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    Its only an unfair advantage if someone has a labradar and it's illegal for the next shooter. If you think it helps buy one and use it. Ive used one at every match I've shot this year and I've gotten my butt kick plenty.

    I think a shooter with a killer barrel, a great tune, and wind ready skills has all kinds of unfair advantage!


    Bart
     
  14. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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    Not to be difficult or contrarian but it would be up to the match director's interpretation of rule 3.18. In my opinion, a Labradar contravenes that rule and should be forbidden. It is an aid to shooting. If it were not, why would you have it there in the first place? Saying that it's for recording only still means it's an aid to shooting.
     
  15. Joe Salt

    Joe Salt Silver $$ Contributor

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    If it were not, why would you have it there in the first place? Saying that it's for recording only still means it's an aid to shooting.

    There is no advantage if anything it is a distraction! Its there to tell you your velocity and if you need to change something. And its not your hold.
    This sounds like the rest debate, who knows maybe LabRadar will send me another and I can put one on either side.

    Joe Salt
     
  16. Keith Glasscock

    Keith Glasscock True believer - Straight 284 Gold $$ Contributor

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    3.18 General—
    All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting
    and which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden. The Match Director, Official Referee, Jury Chairman or Supervisor shall have the right to examine a shooter’s equipment or apparel. The responsibility shall be upon the competitor to submit questionable equipment and apparel for official inspection and approval in sufficient time prior to the beginning of a match so that it will not inconvenience either the competitor or the official


    Interesting, the first part of the first sentence may in fact be a problem. As Jay and Donovan have pointed out, a decision on an errant shot can be made from the displayed data. I think that might qualify as facilitating. Looks like it is up to each match director whether they should be allowed and or under what conditions.

    Having shot a total of one string using a borrowed one, I agree with Joe, I could not have made hold decisions based on the data *and* made good wind calls at the same time. I found it distracting.
     
  17. johnnyi

    johnnyi Gold $$ Contributor

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    the new e'targets collect chronograph data. but I guess then EVERYONE would have the numbers at that point so no advantage one vs the other. I would like to see how my numbers are holding up under match fired conditions, even if I had to cover the display.

    I'm pretty sure I have seen cameras setup along the firing line that folks can go back and replay the video to see mirage vs wind call. In fact "google it" you will see plenty of Fclass videos. Which to me is a GREAT thing...Gives folks a chance to see how much fun we are having shooting!
     
  18. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Gold $$ Contributor

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    Don't see how the Labradar data could be an advantage. Even if it indicated two or three in a row that were low were also slightly slow, the shooter has already loaded their ammo and has know way of knowing if, or for how long, the velocity trend might continue. They could start holding off, get a faster round, then go high. IMO, if anything, the Labradar might be a distinct disadvantage for some. It's one more thing that uses up some of your bandwidth while you're behind the rifle. With plenty of practice, some will get used to it, but some might not. I personally have no issues at all with someone using one during a string.
     
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  19. JFM33

    JFM33 Silver $$ Contributor

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    Having the knowledge is one thing ,knowing what to do with it is another.
    An example : last year shooting a NRA regional on E-targets that give velocity.On my firing point was a guy shooting F-Tr on his first relay I scored for him he was loosing shots high and low.He would adjust his scope up for the low shots and then shoot one out the top.He did this for the hole string and being it was for record I said nothing.When he was done I pointed out to him to check is velocity for the high or low shots before adjusting his scope.His next relay he shot a 200 at 1000,and said thanks.
    For what it's worth I learned 20fps with a 200hybd will eat up the 10" ten ring .
    In the end a letter from the NRA will decide.
    John
     
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  20. KT

    KT Silver $$ Contributor

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    Bottom line is that there is nothing in the rule book that says exactly that you can't use them. You get the same data if you shoot on electronic targets.
     

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