1. dmoran

    dmoran Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,264
    Ray -

    The next several will look the same way, until you get the Iosso out.
    Iosso is white in the tube, but turns black as the plant extract breaks down in the barrel, which needs to be thoroughly removed.
    I suggest to read and follow the instructions on the tube to removal (and for applying as well).

    Donovan
     
  2. Raythemanroe

    Raythemanroe Bullet Whisperer

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,723
    I didn't have any triple action on hand so I dry patched it out and used some basic gun oil patches.. I also run a couple patches through after using oil.. I usually dry patch at the range before my relay to get the moisture out of the barrel..

    I don't have a bore scope on hand but after threading the muzzle brake off and looking at the rifling it appears to be much cleaner.. I only plan on using the IOSSO ever 150-200 rnds..


    Ray
     
  3. Eddie Harren

    Eddie Harren

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,621
    Put some Iosso on a patch, rub it on the outside of a SS barrel. Tell me what you see.
     
  4. jlow

    jlow

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,347
    That is right, the black can be (but not necessarily) just the polish removing some metal. You get the same experience polishing copper with Brasso i.e. the cloth will turn black. So seeing black does not necessarily mean you are removing carbon.

    I think this is the reason why it is so hard trying to figure out whether you actually have a carbon problem. I finally bit the bullet and brought a Hawkeye borescope sot that I don't have to blindly do this...
     
  5. dmoran

    dmoran Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,264
    All though I had conducted Eddie's suggestion above in past years when I first started using Iosso in 2006, and once again about 3 years ago, I decided to do it again today: - grabbed a barrel stub that I have a shoulder, neck, and throat cut into from 1 of my 6Dasher reamers and applied straight Iosso Bore Cleaner on a section of the OD, and on another section of the OD I applied there Triple Action Oil Solution and Bore Cleaner.
    Next I rubbed with a patch as forceful I could for 50 full back and forth stroke in 1 direction, then 50 more in the opposite direction.
    Wiped the black residue off thoroughly and then inspected the surfaces in comparison to each other and to the un-touched sections using a magnifying glass. And can not see any difference to the entire surface what so ever.

    Next I applied Iosso Bore Cleaner to an Iosso Eliminator Brush and again with force rubbed the surface forcefully in two opposite directions, with again no difference in appearance to surface finish from brushed scrubbed, patch scrubbed, or un-touched surface area.

    Next I inspected the chamber and bore of the barrel stub, then as Iosso instructions say, I applied the Triple Action Solution to a patch, ran it through the chambered stubs bore (which has about 3/4" of rifling after the chamber-end) several times, fallowed by Iosso Bore Cleaner to an Eliminator Brush.
    I pushed the brush through, back and forth, until I got tired of doing it at 166 full back and forth passes.
    Dry patched it out and inspected the entire ID of the entire stub the best I could, which appeared no different in any area then it did prior to the application.

    Next I went through my screw drivers and found a philip's that had some surface rust on the shank about 1/2 way up. Wiped the spot with the Solution, then Applied Iosso to the Eliminator brush and scrubbed to rust spot about 20 times. Wiped it off and no more surface rust spot.
    This is inline to what I see with a bore-scope to carbon layer in a barrel, when Iosso gets done with it.

    Once again I am convinced that Iosso Bore Cleaner, when used in complimentary fashion to there instructions, is a very safe and harmless bore cleaner, that I find to be very effective. But I can not state what may happen if using the product with other solutions, oils, or brushes then Iosso recommends. Or not fallowing there ritual procedures as per there instructions.

    Donovan
     
    6MMsteve and Marianne like this.
  6. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,776
    Donovan,
    A freind of mine, who has borescopes (20x if I remember correctly) uses IOSSO to smooth up the throats of freshly cut chambers. It smooths out the reamer marks on the leade angle. Perhaps you need a little more magnification. Did you notice that your barrel stubs were polished by the IOSSO?
    Boyd
     
  7. dmoran

    dmoran Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,264
    Boyd -

    I've never seen where the new formula Iosso would be capable of that by itself. Was your friend using it with some sort of a dowel, or a lap, or with scotch-brite, or by some other mechanical means?
    I was told the old formula could polish a throat if you were very persistent with it, but that is 2nd hand information like yours is, and from back in the day.

    Take a look at the 1st picture I posted last night on jlow's new thread:
    http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3873713.msg36576365#msg36576365
    That is what the Lead & Throat look like on a barrel with 2600-rounds, that was finished being cleaned with Iosso every time. Notice how you can still see some tooling marks across the bottom of the ramps, that the fired bullets and fouling and/or cleaning regiment have not worn through yet like the rest of the ramp !.!.!
    It is my experience, that if you shot a 6Dasher (known to carbon) 2600 times without Iosso as part of your cleaning regiment, the Lead & Throat would look far worse.

    As to a polished effect, I would compare the stub looked similar to what tooth-paste makes teeth look like after brushing; very clean with a glint of a polished look.
    Donovan
     
  8. lloydx2

    lloydx2

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    292
    Turns black when the plant extract breaks down? Really?
     
  9. Joe Salt

    Joe Salt Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    May 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,596
    I'm wondering if people that say they have runned barrels by using these cleaners are not getting it all out, like the patch Ray showed! I keep putting patches through the barrel till there is just a little black left. Sometimes this may take 15-20 patches. Then I use Kroil, the first and second patch will almost always be black. I keep going till there is no more dark color to the patches, then let it soak, then repeat till nothing else comes out. Dry patch then inspect with borescope. My two cents ;)

    Joe Salt
     
  10. Raythemanroe

    Raythemanroe Bullet Whisperer

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,723
    Bore scopes are expensive, I'm still playing catch up with buying all the wrong $hit.. I patched it out until it looked clean and then gave it some wet patches.. I will say IOSSO cleaned my bore up better then my normal method..




    Ray
     
  11. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,776
    IMO IOSSO is the best there is for certain cleaning problems. I use it when I need it. My comments were just directed at those who may think that if some is good, more it better, and those who have bad cleaning rod technique and/or useless bore guides. The more powerful a tool is, the more carefully it needs to be used.
     
    LA50SHOOTER likes this.
  12. fm1947

    fm1947 Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2010
    Messages:
    844
    I use iosso with this really good fit cleans great http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/cleaning-pellets/weapons-care-system-pellets-prod13839.aspx
     
  13. LawrenceHanson

    LawrenceHanson

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2009
    Messages:
    122
    I would like to see some conclusive evidence that barrels that have been cleaned with Flitz paste metal cleaner suddenly copper fouled more than they did previously.

    I would also like to see some conclusive evidence that IOSSO or JB Compound will also produce copper fouling in barrels with extended use.

    To those who say this is true, what is your personal experience with these products? And how did you document your experience? We all know that these products are good for cleaning barrels. The question is…why do these products promote copper fouling and how do you know this to be a fact?

    Many shooters are looking for straight answers, if there is a straight answer, what is it?

    Once again…WHY do barrels copper foul more when using these cleaners and how do you know it to be true?
     
  14. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2014
    Messages:
    8,004
    Its good for all the BR shooters i know. We all use it a lot and all it does is clean barrels like advertised. When you start feeling the carbon short stroke a patch thru with flitz or iosso whichever you have, then continue on.
     
  15. mikecr

    mikecr

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2004
    Messages:
    3,174
    I use J-B 'non-embedding bore cleaning compound' and have not had an issue. http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/solvents-degreasers/bore-cleaning-paste/j-b-reg-non-embedding-bore-cleaning-compound-prod1160.aspx
    Seems same good results as IOSSO users report.

    One day I went stupid and used FLITZ in a great shooting Border barrel. Next trip to the range grouping opened a bit by 30rnds. When I cleaned the barrel it was obvious that I had copper fouled out. This was a step change as the barrel had never produced more than a trace of blue on one patch even with 100rnd sessions -until this point.
    Added to this, my bullets were WS2 coated, and with this I'm sure I could normally have gone 200-300rnds before actually copper fouling out. FLITZ was a mistake, and much worse, I was unable to undo that mistake, with a barrel that had easily another 1,000rnds of accurate barrel life.. Even firelapping would not undo it. 6-7 ugly patches of blue with each cleaning.
    Well I can't stand a barrel that copper fouls out, so I pulled it, replaced it, lesson learned.

    A friend was really proud of results from one of his guns. This was a 25-06 shooting 1s (3-sht)at 100yds, which was impressive enough. One day he comes in to work questioning barrel life and cleaning. His barrel took a step change and was producing a lot more copper. I asked him what he changed, he said nothing, standard use of J-Bs, new jar. I asked him to check if it was different than what he had been using, if maybe he got his hands on 'Bore Bright'. http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/solvents-degreasers/bore-cleaning-paste/j-b-reg-bore-bright-prod1161.aspx
    Next day, sure enough, he said it was and that he didn't know there was a difference.
    I broke the news to him that he might as well shop around for another barrel,, his wallet grouping days are over with that one.

    That's 2 anecdotal bad experiences with bore 'polishing'. In my mind there is nothing good in it, only bad.
     
  16. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,776
    Thanks, one little ray of hope is that my friend, who has done a lot of work, and payed his dues to learn how to lap finished barrels, has been able to rough up barrels that were too smooth, to overcome break in problems relating to copper fouling. I would never say that this was an answer for the average shooter, or even the average gunsmith, but my friend is an old race engine builder with serious mechanical skills and aptitude, who is willing to invest the time and expense into learning how to do things properly. The first CF barrel that he did lapping experiments on became unusable and he managed to salvage it by having it rebored and rerifled. My point being that one should experiment on discarded barrels.
     
  17. LawrenceHanson

    LawrenceHanson

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2009
    Messages:
    122
    We have a few contributors here who say that copper fouling increases with the use of some abrasive bore cleaners, and they have some experience to back it up. That answers half of my question.

    The other half of my question that has not been clearly answered is why?

    The following is my personal experience. I have used abrasive bore cleaners (Flitz, IOSSO, JB Compound) for many years with the past five years or so backed up with frequent borescope evaluation. Yes, I have noticed an increase in copper fouling in some barrels from time to time, but not consistently. Not consistently enough to attribute it 100% to abrasive cleaners.

    Based on my observations, there are several other factors that I believe can be attributed to increased copper fouling. Such as a change in bullets, a change in powders, increased or decreased pressure, increased or decreased velocity, increased ambient temperature, rate of fire, freshly cleaned vs fouled barrel, advanced barrel erosion, and a few more factors that I may be overlooking.

    Some say that the root cause is abrasives make the bore surface “too smooth”. I will agree that abrasive cleaners will remove metal from the bore surface, but how much of an effect does that have on copper fouling? When I look at my factory barrels after cleaning with abrasives I still see the “railroad track” surface as distinct as before, it’s just a bit shinier. When I look at my hand lapped barrels after cleaning with abrasives I still see the “longitudinal striations” from the 240 to 320 grit lapping as distinct as before, it’s just a bit shinier. I sincerely doubt that I am removing a measurable amount of metal from the bore. Just polishing it.

    So why does a polished bore result in an increase in copper fouling? Increased surface area? Increased friction? Reduced gas seal? What? I would really like to hear a good explanation of the physics/mechanics behind this phenomena. And I would like to know if you believe this condition constitutes 100% of copper fouling increases in barrels that have been cleaned with abrasives.
     
  18. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,776
    Perhaps there is some need of clarification here. I have said that over use of some "abrasive" cleaners can and has caused problems with increased copper fouling. Back in the 90's I was cautioned about this, by someone who does a lot of experimentation, does his own barrel work, shoots competition,and has done experiments that were specific to this area of interest. Being no fool, I took his advice, and have made every effort to only use such cleaners when needed, and only as much as was needed to remove the fouling that a brush and solvent had failed to remove. during much of that time, for most of my shooting, the powder caliber combination that I used almost exclusively did not result in the formation of hard carbon deposits. Butches, patches, and bronze brushes were able to clean my barrels, most effectively. There were times when my varmint rifles required more, usually when a different powder had been tried, and the usual scrubbing did not get the job done. For these occasions, I used IOSSO as I have described, with excellent results, and from that point forward used a different powder, one that did not cause cleaning issues.

    The reason that I have urged caution with the use of abrasive cleaners is that I have lots of experience with shooters who are not careful about how they clean, who use bad equipment and technique, and are prone to the if some is good more is better, and too much is just right approach. I have advised caution for the same reason elementary classrooms have scissors with rounded points, not because scissors are unusually dangerous, or that their use should be avoided.

    As to the mechanism by which overly smooth barrel surfaces cause jacket fouling, does it really matter? We know that if this is the situation, then that happens, so we avoid it and with that the problem. Most of this type of discussion come down to one fellows imaginings vs. another's...hardly hard science.
     
  19. LHSmith

    LHSmith

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,311
    To remove the Iosso, I run a WET patch with BBS thru, then 3 passes with the bronze brush saturated with BBS. Two more dry patches and the last one comes out clean enough to re-use. Note- BBS on a bronze brush is also used BEFORE my Iosso application.
     
  20. TC260

    TC260

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Messages:
    159
    With the discussion about IOSSO, JB's, etc. Does anybody have any experience with Boretech Chameleon Gel which based on their description would also be classified as an "abrasive" cleaner?
     

Share This Page