1. Raythemanroe

    Raythemanroe Bullet Whisperer

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,677
    Happy Birthday Joe,

    I have to assume the frequency of IOSSO being needed is dependent on how one cleans his bore or lack of.. I have been told every 100-150, Maybe this depends on caliber/ powder and probably discipline. I wasn't assuming I should do this after every relay and again when I get home. How many of you shooters feel you should not use an abrasive to clean carbon out of the bore?

    How many frown on leaving solvents in the bore for extended periods of time?


    Ray
     
  2. jlow

    jlow

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,348
    So please humor somebody new to IOSSO. So reading the description at the IOSSO Products website, their “Eliminator Bore Brushes” description seem to indicate that these brushes “allows for back and forth action unlike traditional brass and bronze type brushes”.

    I understand you guys are using IOSSO to take out the carbon, I am guessing in the throat area and maybe the area “4-6” forward”. Does the carbon really build up in this “4-6” forward” area? Was thinking it would only be in the throat area in which case one could put the brush in from the chamber side and remove it again from there and never put it in the bore?
     
  3. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,734
    No disrespect, but you are guessing, and not correct about where hard carbon can be found. The only way to know what is going on is by looking with a borescope. The reason that we can get away with using IOSSO fairly often in the back of the barrel is that jacket fouling is strongly related to bullet velocity and in the back third of the barrel, the bullet is not going as fast as it is nearer the muzzle. There is a lot of discussion and argument on shooting forums that is based on assumptions and theory. Some of this is unavoidable. Thankfully this is one area where we have the technology to actually see what is going on.
     
  4. jlow

    jlow

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,348
    Thanks Boyd! That's what I needed to know.

    So here is another associated question. Is this degree of carbon fouling (or am I assuming here and that it includes copper fouling) in the first “4-6” forward” a generalized phenomena or is it more specific in certain calibers because of higher MV associated with those calibers?
     
  5. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,734
    I would say that it is primarily a function of what powder is being used, and the caliber can also be involved as well. Friends that shoot .204 Rugers have had more than their share of carbon problems, more than they have had with .223s. Cleaning frequency can also be a factor. Once it get built up to a certain thickness is seems to amalgamate into something that is more difficult to remove. Keeping the number of shots between cleanings to a reasonable number, and cleaning right after one has finished shooting are IMO both good ideas. I am sure that we have all noticed how much easier it is to remove powder fouling from a freshly fired case than from one that has sat around a week.
     
  6. jlow

    jlow

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,348
    Thanks Boyd! All good info. I do tend to clean after shooting but always still wonder about that dreaded carbon ring. The good news is my rifle does not have a custom tight chamber. That business in the first 4-6” forward surprise me and from reading this thread, I went and read what Tony Boyer said about this and he mentioned using soft bristled brush with IOSSO, making sure the brush DO NOT TURN and 30-40 strokes.. Then I read this other review:

    http://www.7mm.com.au/death-barrel/

    where the author in Australia find that doing it that way scratch the hell out of the bore… Granted he used bronze brushes and an undefined bore polish but WOW!

    Personally, I am thinking of buying a borescope to see if I am having any problem before going down this road.
     
  7. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,734
    Back in the late 90s we did not have the selection of nylon bore brushes that are available today. The stiffer ones were brought out to try to compete with bronze for use when brushing with solvent. Most fellows that I know that tried them for that purpose went back to bronze, because the nylon was not as effective, but use with IOSSO is a different application, and for that I want the more ordinary black nylon brushes that are not billed as heavier bristled and stiffer. I would never use a bronze brush with an abrasive, because they put too much pressure on the abrasive in concentrated areas, the same reason that I do not want the stiffest nylon. I want light pressure, and to be able to reverse the brush easily. As far as the Australian goes, not all abrasives are the same, and without specific information, I would only look at the fact that he used a bronze brush, which I think is a very bad idea with an abrasive. The bottom line is that one needs to think about what he is doing and go carefully. Doing it that way, IOSSO has been a real life saver, better than JB for the specific task of removing hard carbon from the throat and back end of barrels, but as always, if something is working for you, I wouldn't change.
     
    LarryDScott likes this.
  8. jsthntn247

    jsthntn247 Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,548
    In my .223 with Varget I have to use Jb every cleaning, but very lightly. Dang powder fouling just will not come out without it. Didn't have that problem with 4895.
     
  9. jlow

    jlow

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,348
    Thanks Boyd!
     
  10. dmoran

    dmoran Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,260
    Boyd -
    Questions for you:

    Since you continually refer to IOSSO as an abrasive, tell me what abrasive materials there are in IOSSO Bore Cleaner.
    Is there any garnet, sandstone, aluminum oxide, diamond dust, ceramic, iron, steel, boron carbide, silicon, or the like abrasive materials in IOSSO?
    I do not know of any known abrasive material that would pass a USDA Certification, do you?
    Are you aware IOSSO changed there formula to IOSSO Bore Cleaner some years ago now?
    Do you ever fallow IOSSO's instructions to the use of there product?

    What I know of IOSSO is:
    - IOSSO Products, Inc say there is no abrasive materials in IOSSO Bore Cleaner.
    - It is bio and is USDA Certified.
    - Typically any product that is USDA Certified would be considered very safe and harmless.
    - I've been using IOSSO Bore Cleaner in almost every barrel I've cleaned since 2006, and have never seen any barrel damage or harm to come from its use, only good. And I use a Hawkeye Bore-scope periodically when cleaning barrels, and for barrel inspections.
    I also know many others that use it regularly and see it being used very often at the LR-BR matches I attend by others as well.
     
    LarryDScott and dogdude like this.
  11. BoydAllen

    BoydAllen Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,734
    To clarify, I have use the word abrasive to describe cleaners that work primarily by particulate rather than chemical action. You can call it what you want. I think that the distinction that IOSSO makes relates to particle size, rather than method of accomplishing the task. I have used IOSSO for a long time, and prefer it to other similar products for certain applications, my points have been to caution users to be careful with it, in the same way that you would caution someone to be careful with a sharp tool, not to discourage its use. It seems to me that you have missed my point completely, in you zeal to defend a product that I have said that I like and use. Evidently your methods for its use are working well for you. Good!
     
  12. jlow

    jlow

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,348
    As far as I can see from the manufacturer's product description, they make no claims as to not having abrasives?

    NEW BIO-Based Formula. Highly effective concentrated paste formula that lasts longer and takes less time to clean with than ordinary liquid or aerosol type cleaners. Because it is a paste it cannot spill or run into wood stocks, grips or mechanisms causing chemical damage. Iosso Bore Cleaner removes copper, lead, carbon burn, powder fouling, plastic wad residue, and surface rust. It is non-corrosive, non-flammable and has no offensive odors or mists. Use with the Eliminator Brushes and Eliminator Triple Action Oil Solution for complete cleaning.This bio-based formula is made from plant extracts. While keeping our environment healthy, it also reduces our dependence on foreign resources. USDA Certified and designated for federal procurement.


    The thing to keep in mind when reading manufacture claims is they are specifically targeted to push our buttons and not necessarily to give us accurate information. If they really want to give us accurate information about the products ingredients, they would give us a detailed list. For example, when they say BIO-based, it just means some of the ingredients are biological in nature. It’ is like saying a stain is water-based, it does not mean all the ingredients are water.
     
  13. dmoran

    dmoran Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,260
    Boyd -

    Actually I feel I get your point well enough. Just feel you continually use very misleading words for comparison of a biologic plant extract and USDA certified product like IOSSO as being an abrasive and/or sharp tool. And how your advise to using it differs so greatly from IOSSO's own instructions.
    And I can't help but wonder if you have IOSSO's ingredients confused with actual metal polishes like Flitz, Clover, or Pro Mow which actually have abrasive materials in them.

    But I can't blame you for being cautious and advising others to be cautious with any cleaner!.!.!
    Just as I am myself and have advised others to be so also. And is why I strongly advise others to read and fallow the mfg instructions, so that they are not mixing petroleum or water based ammonia products with the Bio based product, and are not using a type of brush that is not recommended.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    jlow -

    What bore cleaner mfg gives a detailed list of there ingredients, and why don't they?
    I myself think has more to do with keeping ingredients secret, so that it is not copied and/or "home brewed", then it does with trying to push our buttons.

    Also you state: "when they say BIO-based, it just means some of the ingredients are biological in nature"....
    which I can't help but disagree with since it is USDA Certified, which tells me it is 100% biological and organic, or how else could it hold that certification.
     
  14. Raythemanroe

    Raythemanroe Bullet Whisperer

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,677
    Midway: Iosso Bore Cleaning and Polishing Compound Paste 1-1/2 oz Tube :)


    Ray
     
  15. jlow

    jlow

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,348
    Agreed that part of the reason that a manufacturer not give the whole list of ingredients is because it is a trade secret, but it is still also true that what they list and how this list component in their advertisement is to sell the product, which frequently mean that it can be intentionally misleading.

    On the other question, no expert on this but from the little research I have done on this, the term “USDA Certified Organic” means that the product is at least 95% organic, so that would mean you could have a 5% in-organic component?
     
  16. Raythemanroe

    Raythemanroe Bullet Whisperer

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,677
    I read reviews on the product and the general observations were it was a gritty paste that polished the bore. Many folks said 8-10 times was plenty, they also added that the more you used it the faster it cleaned up.. My math leaves me to believe that a fine grit substance is polishing the bore..

    I wonder if walnut media is organic? Why can't organic be abrasive?


    Ray
     
  17. jlow

    jlow

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,348
    Organic definitely can be abrasive. Good example would be bone and marine shell, both of which have significant calcium content. Anybody who has experience coral would also testify to this.
     
  18. dmoran

    dmoran Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,260
    Ray -

    I agree with your input that I highlighted above, and typically will only go 4 to 6 times at most myself.
    And also agree the more you use it, the faster it cleans out. Just as I myself see less layered carbon after I finish cleaning a barrel with it then I do when I don't use it.

    As to abrasives, here is a list that I looked up:
    Natural abrasives - Calcite, Emery, Diamond dust, Novaculite, Pumice, Rouge, Sand, Corundum, Garnet, Sandstone, Tripoli, Powdered Feldspar, Staurolite
    Artificial abrasives - Borazon, Ceramic, Aluminium oxide, Ceramic iron oxide, Corundum, Dry ice, Glass powder, Steel abrasive, Silicon carbide, Zirconia alumina, Boron carbide, Slags

    I can't speak to walnut media (or marine shells like jlow claims is an abrasive) because I am not sure of its contents.
    But do know that some plant extracts (which IOSSO is made from) such as golden seal, sage, and some sea weed plants are insoluble with water that can feel "gritty like", that increase cleaning effectiveness of a hard surface such as barrel steels as well as many other hard surfaces. And are used in many other paste cleaners as well, like tooth-pastes for instance.

    Donovan
     
  19. BenPerfected

    BenPerfected Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    823
    These are the comments from the Shilen website.


    How clean is clean?
    We get this question many times and have a great deal of difficulty helping some customers understand that a rifle barrel does not have to be spotless to shoot great. Many times more harm than good is done in trying to get it that way. Picture a car's fender. If the fender has a small dent in it, then professional application of body putty fills the dent. When painted over, the dent becomes unnoticeable, and the surface of the fender is smooth and consistent. The same thing happens in a rifle barrel on a microscopic level. Removing this small trace of copper puts you right back to square one. The next bullet that crosses that area will, again, leave a small trace of copper. Similar to patching a pothole. All successful benchrest shooters shoot one or more "fouler" shots down the barrel before going to the record target. This is not to warm up the barrel. They are resurfacing it on the inside. Benchrest shooters clean between relays to get the powder fowling out, not the copper. However, since copper usually comes out with the powder, they know that it must be replaced to get "back in the groove". I've had shooters tell me they "cleaned their rifle for 3 hours to get all the copper out of it." Their next statement is almost invariably that they had to shoot 4-5 rounds through it just to get it back to "shooting" again. This tells me that in order for the rifle to shoot well again, they had to replace the copper they worked so diligently to remove. I have a 7x08 Improved that shoots the same 1/2" MOA after 15 minutes of cleaning or 3 hours of scrubbing and de-coppering. Personally, I prefer shooting to cleaning. The gist of this is to set a regular cleaning regimen and stay with it. If the accuracy of the rifle is acceptable with a 15 min. cleaning, why clean longer? I would much rather have people admiring the groups I shot than marveling at how clean my barrel looks on the inside.
    Back to top.
     
  20. Raythemanroe

    Raythemanroe Bullet Whisperer

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,677
    My gun has been cleaned twice after the match the way I generally clean it, this was a third time starting with IOSSO.

    [​IMG]

    First dry patch after 8-10 passes with IOSSO

    Ray
     

Share This Page