INDUCTIVE Annealing

Discussion in 'Reloading Forum (All Calibers)' started by Donkey, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. Donkey

    Donkey

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    Hello everyone.

    I'm looking to build an Ultrasonic annealer. Has anyone done this, seen it done or have any sugestions for a road map for design and construction. I've heard of someone managing to anneal cases in about 3ms / case this way but I haven't managed to get to the source yet.

    Any thoughts would be much appriciated
    Jason
     
  2. dantiff2

    dantiff2

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    Ultrasonic or did you mean Magethermic? Not sure on how to ultrasonically anneal...

    Dan
     
  3. Heavies

    Heavies Site $$ Contributor

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    Induction?

    I found this.
    http://www.carolinamarksman.com/induction-annealing.html
    He is working on a machine.
    Seems to me like a very good idea, but prohibitively costly at the moment.
     
  4. dantiff2

    dantiff2

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    If in fact it is "induction" your referring too then you really need to see the setup that Dave Berg has. Extremely repeatable ! Consistency is what it's ALL about :)

    He uses a cheap Lee press and and Miniductor coupled with a timer to bring the cost up too something reasonable..

    Dan
     
  5. Heavies

    Heavies Site $$ Contributor

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    Where can we see it? Sounds Very interesting!
    I think this method would be the most consistent way to anneal cases, down to the microsecond. Hehe.
    Does it need to be that precise? I don't know. I've been doing it by hand, yes it's tedious, but it has been working for me.
    But a machine would make it feasible to anneal every firing thus giving that extra bit of exactness.
     
  6. Donkey

    Donkey

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    My apologies guys. Induction sounds much more plausible.

    That's a great link Heavies thank you.
     
  7. lurcher

    lurcher

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    I had wondered about using one of these. I use them in my work. They turn a piece of nicrome wire red hot in about 5 seconds.
     
  8. Taildrag15X

    Taildrag15X Site $$ Contributor

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    For a price on the suggestion above:

    http://www.biosys-scientific.com/shop/category_88/Infrared-Micro-Sterilizer.html?shop_param=cid%3D%26
     
  9. Heavies

    Heavies Site $$ Contributor

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    That looks cool; Does it have and automatic timer on it?
     
  10. mkihne

    mkihne

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    Just curious, Dave.

    Based on your cases and tempilaque, do you consider the 3 second case about right and too much heat into the body at 4 sec?
     
  11. lurcher

    lurcher

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    No but perhaps one could be fitted. I just figured it would be more uniform and consistent than using a flame even if you just timed them yourself.

    There's one on ebay for about $40 bucks
     
  12. jonbearman

    jonbearman I live in new york state,how unfortunate ! Site $$ Contributor

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    Dave it is quite a rig you built.I broke down and bought a benchsource but I like the induction unit as it has other uses.
     
  13. Donkey

    Donkey

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    That is great stuff DaveBerg.

    Hey lurcher do you reckon you could try a case in one of those Infrared MicroSterilizers? The results of that would be very interesting.

    I had a chat with guy that designs the 'too expensive to use for reloading' style of inductive heaters. He seemed to think that it was only a matter of time before they become cheep enough. One other thing he did say was that at 100 kHz the EMF field will extend to about 40cm from the coil and it was not something you really want to be exposed to. A Faraday Cage fixes this issue.

    Any more home built units out there?
     
  14. Heavies

    Heavies Site $$ Contributor

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    Dave,
    That is a really cool setup! What kind of power supply is necessary for that tube to work, also what does that timer consist of?

    Lurcher,
    I like that sterilizer thing too. But, I am wondering if it gets hot enough to quickly heat the necks before the base gets too hot. Especially in short cases, like a 6br? The one on Ebay said something like 800F, I'm thinking that's not hot enough. When I use a hand torch the temps are much higher, and I need about 4 or 5 seconds per case to get a good anneal.
     
  15. Heavies

    Heavies Site $$ Contributor

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    Awesome Dave, thank you for sharing!
     
  16. moosetracker

    moosetracker

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    Re: Ultrasonic Annealing

    Which model do you use? I see that several models are available but they all seem to be limited to 600 watts. Is this enough to operate the Mini-Ductor?
     
  17. Gearheadpyro

    Gearheadpyro

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    My name is Andrew Poe, I am the owner of the website linked to in the first few posts on this thread (thanks Heavies!). I used to be an active member on this forum (see number of posts), but haven't posted anything in a while. I've had a lot of other things going on...

    I've been working on an automated induction annealing machine on and off for about a year (maybe a little more) now, and I am almost done with it. My work on an automated machine has been hampered mainly by the cost (I'm forced to develop this on a limited budget), but thanks to several innovations and ideas from many people the cost has come way down.

    I originally started off with the mini-ductor as my induction heater, but have since moved to using a Roy 2.2 from Fluxeon Inc. Fluxeon's website is http://www.fluxeon.com/ in case you want to check them out. The new heater is more powerful, the cost is substantially less than even the best deal on a mini-ductor, and the guys are great to work with. If your interested in trying your hand at induction heating I would advise using Fluxeon's Roy 2.2. The way the heater works is different from the mini-ductor, but it is better suited for annealing brass.

    The advantages of using an induction heater to anneal instead of propane are numerous. The cases always heat to the exact same temperature, it's extremely quick and easy to set up, no worries about open flames or propane (the case is the only part that gets significantly hot), I could go on and on. The downsides are (up until recently) high cost, and induction heating is a little bit tricky to get right (hence the reason I've been working on this machine).

    The biggest tricks to using induction heat for annealing are getting the setup right, and controlling the heater. Work coils vary in their effectiveness; diameter of the work coil in relation to the case, number of turns and layers in the work coil, etc, all have an impact on the heaters output, as does what you are heating. Brass is a difficult metal to heat using this method because it is a very good conductor of electricity. Once you get the setup right though, the cases will heat very quickly. The difference between a perfect anneal and way overdone is typically less than 1/2 second.

    My machine is all microprocessor controlled and eliminates most of these problems. It operates in much the same way as the current propane annealers available, only with a very different heat source. The cases are loaded into a turntable, the machine rotates them into the flux concentrator (which takes the place of the work coil), then anneals the case. Time is controllable anywhere from 0.025 seconds up to 9.975 seconds, most cases take around 3 seconds to heat to the correct anneal temp of 700 degrees. I've got a LCD display screen on the machine to tell me what the machine is doing and the amount of time that the heater is set for.

    All that is required to run my machine is three simple steps:

    Set the height of the flux concentrator,
    Set the time the heater needs to run (can be a time recorded from previous runs since heat output is always consistent, or set a new time using test mode),
    Press start, then load cases as the machine anneals them.

    The way I have the machine set up now it has three modes of operation:

    1- Test mode. This mode allows you to run a test on 1 case. It is only used for setting up the amount of time to anneal the case.

    2- Automatic mode. This is the "normal operation" mode. The operator loads the cases, and the machine anneals them. Total time per case varies depending on how long the heater is set for, but I tend to average about 5 seconds total per case. I usually anneal lots of 100 cases at a time and it takes me about 10-12 minutes (including setup).

    3- Manual mode. This mode is handy for doing things that don't allow for the work piece to be moved by the turntable (like annealing bullets or bonding lead cores to jackets for those that make their own bullets). In this mode I have to press a button every time the heater needs to be run, then I have to manually move that object out and the next one in.

    I'm trying to get the final prototype housing completed this weekend, and I've got the last of the electronics coming in next week. Hopefully my prototype should be 100% done within 2 weeks. When it is done and I'm (mostly) satisfied with it I'll post pictures and a video of it in action here and on my own site.

    I hope this post helps answer some questions about induction annealing in general and my machine as I see in my absence here I've gotten several PM's about it.
     
  18. Silverfox

    Silverfox Site $$ Contributor

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    Carolina Marksman--Very interesting project you have taken on there. I'll look forward to hearing more about your progress in the future. Good luck in getting this machine working.
     
  19. Heavies

    Heavies Site $$ Contributor

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    Carolina Marksman,
    I am glad to see you are still working on your machine. I have been following what you have posted on your site and some others as well. +1 on seeing what you have done so far, and thank you for sharing your info. ;D
     
  20. Donkey

    Donkey

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    Thank you for that Andrew.

    2 Weeks eh? I could be a starter for one of those all being well.


    Best Wishes
    Jason
     

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