How to remove carbon from chamber/ throat area?

[260Ravage]

Has anyone got a 'slick chick' procedure for removing carbon from the chamber area? I read somewhere that someone uses a brass of the pertinent caliber with a brass brush protruding from it,, and then spin that case in the chamber. To my way of thinking, that may be effective. Any feedback with better options or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks,,and have a good Christmas!
Terry

 

[Dgd6mm]

I use a nylon brush on my cleaning rod, patch saturated in GM Top Engine Cleaner, rapped around the brush. Spin it , work it in and out, it will do the job. I also polish my throat and bore with Iosso Bore Paste every 200-300 rounds. Just did 1 of my 6CM's today.

 

[fdshuster]

Terry: I know this is after the fact, but comes under the heading of "suggestions" I think. If you keep the gap between the case mouth and the front of the chamber to a maximum of .010" and minimum of .005" a ring of carbon will never form in that area.

For my chambers that I do not have reamer drawings for, I use the Sinclair gauges to take an accurate length measurement, record that dimension, then let the brass grow to within the before mentioned lengths. For chambers cut with my own reamers, no need to use the Sinclair gauges.

As verified with my borescope, no carbon, ever.

One of the worst pieces of "advice" is found in some of the loading manuals that say to trim your cases .010" shorter than max case length, not taking into account that the chamber length can be as much as .040" longer than max case length. Put together the over-trimming with an overly long chamber and there could be a gap in front of the case mouth of 1/32".

 

[260Ravage]

fdshuster:
Yep,,I agree with you. I witnessed the carbon ring scnario with a former rifle and it was a beast to remove. I do not own the tools you mentioned to establish the correct chamber length,but I trim just a bit,only when needed and try to do away with any gap for carbon to build in. cool stuff! thanks.
Terry

 

[BoydAllen]

I used to worry about keeping my gaps to a minimum, but I have shot my 6PPC with a trim length of 1.490 on newly fire formed cases for some time, through more than one barrel's life, and have had no problem with carbon in the throat. Of course I have mostly shot 133 at fairly high pressures, and it is a very clean burning powder. Typically, I clean with Butch's Bore Shine, patches and a bronze brush, and almost never use an abrasive. (I have the use of a bore scope when I need it.)

Once a while back, I tried some surplus 8208 and it was very dirty, requiring a whole different cleaning regimen to keep up with. I decided against using it for that reason, and because of the spotty availability.

My point is that often one may be able to select a cleaner burning powder for a particular task, avoiding some of the more difficult cleaning problems. Another thing that helps is to clean fairly often.

As to the use of the Sinclair chamber length gauges, I do not mean to disrespect any poster but if I were to use such a device it would have to be made of something softer than the mild steel that they use. I have recent experience with a rifle that has a barrel that had had one of these used on it, and whoever did it did not quite trim the case enough. Although the damage was not fatal. it deformed the end of the neck part of the chamber to match the tool, and pushed up a knife edged ridge at the junction between the neck and freebore, which a friend was able to remove with a throat reamer. The damage only became evident when looking through a bore scope. Bolts have a lot of leverage as they are just closing, and stainless barrel steel is soft. Beware.

 

[fdshuster]

Terry: Before I was turned on to the Sinclair gauges, and before I started buying my own chambering reamers that always include a reamer drawing, I was able to use an overly long empty case, not loaded, try to chamber, bolt would not close, carefully trim off .005", try again, would not close, take off another .005", bolt closes, but tight, take off .002" or .003" & bolt closes normally, then take another .005" & that would be the length I'd use for that chamber.

It does require close checking, measuring case length after every FL sizing though, something some cannot be bothered with, so I guess the loading manuals are writing their "advice" for those.

All I get is a very light black burn ring in front of the case mouth, but no carbon ring.

 

[fdshuster]

Boyd: Yes, I certainly agree with you about N133, another reason it, and all VV powders are my favorite.

I was using H322 in one of my 222's when I suddenly developed high pressure problems, before I had my borescope, Dave Bruno 'scoped out the chamber and I was shocked to see a massive ring of carbon. The gap in that factory chambering was .035".

Was able to use IOSSO on a bronze brush, non rotating handle, twisting clockwise & it did take it out.

"whoever did it did not quite trim the case enough", clearly "operator error", and Sinclair emphasizes the need to shorten the case length by 1/10 of an inch. I've never had a problem with the gauges.

Guess the bottom line is: whatever works for you. Carbon easily causes more problems than copper.

 

[BoydAllen]

Just out of curiosity, how had you been cleaning your deuce, before the great carbon ring removal adventure? I think that Iosso can be a real life saver, when it is needed. Keeping track of the length at which a particular bullet makes contact with the rifling can be a help to those who lack a bore scope. I wish that I could say that I have this length recorded for all my rifles. Most of my factory barreled rifles have chromoly barrels that are less smooth than my match grade stainless barrels, take longer to break in, and I think are more tolerant of abrasive use. For these, I figure that a little JB every so often is good practice, but I also expect that they will take more shots to settle in after such a cleaning. For my lapped stainless barrels, I only use an abrasive as a last resort....but I have done it, and will, when needed. For the throat, on those rare occasions, I load a nylon brush with whatever I am using, shove it up till it feels like it is about half into the throat, grab the rod, and give it several turns. After that I short stroke it through the back half of the barrel, then out. The reason for using nylon is that they can be reversed, allowing short stroking.

 

[fdshuster]

Boyd: Just my normal cleaning routines, and at that time I was using Shooters Choice. Couple of wet patch's, bronze brushing chamber to muzzle only, dry patch. After noticing that it was taking longer than usual for a normal cleaning, spoke to my gunsmith & he said the EPA (gotta love 'em) made them change their formula and many of his customers were making the same complaints. On his recommendation switched to Butch's. That was about 5 years ago.

It does seem to help keep carbon under control if I can at least wet down the bore as soon as possible after a shooting session.

 

[deadlyswift]

It does seem to help keep carbon under control if I can at least wet down the bore as soon as possible after a shooting session.

I agree with Fdshuster! After I'm done shooting I will run about 3 soaked patches of Montana Extreme Bore Solvent down my barrel while it is still hot. Usually it is about 2 to 3 hours before I can do proper cleaning after a Fclass match. I have noticed a huge difference in how much easier my barrels clean up, as well I increased the amount of rounds from 200 to about 500 before needing to use JB.

 

[fdshuster]

Mark: I have done a little experiment. Will have a small rag sitting on the shooting bench with a bottle of Hoppe's #9 ( the original basic) & when I take the fired case out of the chamber will give the case neck a little wipe down with the Hoppe's. The case neck comes out spotless. All the dark carbon fouling gone.

Will leave 1/2 of the fired cases unwiped, take them home & let them sit for a couple of hours, then try the Hoppe's. Results? None. The hard carbon will not rub off.

 

[Nomad47]

Hmmm, that's interesting, Frank. On putting some solvent down the bore right after shooting - I wonder what the results would be if 18 rounds were fired, then 18 more rounds a week later, immediately followed by the solvent?

 

[BoydAllen]

It seems to me that there is more going on than just the advantage of a chemical reaction being accelerated by higher temperature. The powder fouling on the case neck is the best example. It seems to me that powder fouling sets up, and after it has, it is much more difficult to remove. If it is true for the outside of a case neck, why would it be different in the bore?

 

[deadlyswift]

LR champion and former USA Palma Team Captian, presented the Idea to me while discussing carbon issues at a match one day. So once I'm done for the day and after my last Relay, I take my rifle from the firing line wet the bore down while it is still good and hot. It's at least 2 to 3 hours before I get settled at the Hotel, or even longer if I have to travel home depending on where I'm shooting at. Once I get where I can do proper cleaning the barrel cleans very easy. All my custom barrels really don't have much copper problems, It's Carbon that I'm always fighting.

As well Like I said above. I use to clean after 200 rounds with JB. Once I started putting solvent down the bore and letting it soak while It's hot. It has increased the amount of rounds to 500 before I have to use JB to get carbon out.

This is not just with the bore, It has kept the Carbon ring that the OP speaks of at bay as well.

 

[BoydAllen]

Good tip

 

[DennisH]

Is there another way to see carbon besides using a bore scope?

 

[BoydAllen]

Smaller deposits are hard to detect any other way, but you can develop an educated hand by paying attention to the resistance that you feel when running a patch through the bore. If you assume that the careful use of either JB or IOSSO has gotten your barrel clean, and pay attention to how a patch slides through the bore, you should be able to start to feel the roughness and constriction that deposits in the bore cause. This is easier to do with a lapped bore. Another way to keep track is to monitor the length at which a particular bullet touches the rifling. It should never get shorter. Having said all of that, there is really no substitute for a bore scope.

Years ago when I wrote an article about one, I had the chance to buy it at a substantial discount, and although I would have liked to purchase it, I could not justify having that much money tied up in something that I would use so little. Part of the reason was also that I had seen that for the powders that I was using, in a variety of barrels, my cleaning technique was working, and so I knew that there would be little real need to do much checking unless I changed something. Nevertheless, to keep one handy, I offered it to a friend (better funded) who was glad to have the savings, and on those rare occasions when I feel the need to explore a bore, I can.

Bore scopes have a so called learning curve. When you first get one, you have a tendency to want to clean until there is no trace of anything in the bore, and overreact to things that you see that are not perfect. With experience, and a little thought one comes to the conclusion that if one has reliable performance at the target, that that is the ultimate goal, and that barrels do not have to be surgically clean or have perfect interiors for this to happen.

 

[DennisH]

MERRY CHRISTMAS

and thanks for the great Christmas response!

I would love to have a bore scope, but I probably as well as many others can't justify the cost of owning one!

Any suggestions of where to accuire one resonably (or rented) will be appreciated.

I know several of us purchased an annealer setup (locally) and you have to donate $50 to be part of the club!

Maybe I can do this with a borescope!

 

[fdshuster]

bill, the retired nomad: I'll let someone else do that experiment & they can report the results.

Hope they have a borescope though, so they can verify the true results.

It's easy enough to see: ugly, hard, baked on black streaks, usually built up in the grooves, sometimes on the tops of the lands, both relatively easy to remove with some scraping action like a bronze brush with JB or IOSSO. But, when severe enough will build up in the corners, where the lands meet the grooves, and that's where it's a real bit** to get out.

The bronze brush bristles are effective there.

As Boyd said, when I first saw it, up close and personal with the 'scope I believed it needed a complete removal, down to bare metal, but that always required 10 to as many as 20 fouler shots ( I consider that to be a waste of perfectly good ammo & barrel life), so now just want to keep it under control.

Doing that usually (depending on the barrel), results in the first shot going to the point of aim, with no correction(s) needed, especially important in a match where no foulers/sighters are allowed.

 

[deadlyswift]

bill, the retired nomad: I'll let someone else do that experiment & they can report the results.

Hope they have a borescope though, so they can verify the true results.

If you guys are interested in the results of that Experiment. I could do it. I have a barrel that shoots like crap and is only going to be used as a fire forming barrel. I have the time and always love a reason for trigger time! Plus I have a Hawkeye bore scope. So tell me exactly what you are interested in?

From what I'm reading the Experiment consist of 18 rounds fired let the barrel sit for a week then fire 18 more rounds. Run a few patches of bore solvent down the barrel while it is still hot. Wait a cpl of hours and then see how well the barrel will clean up??? Is this correct? Any Idea's on the steps or procedures you would like me to take?

Here is what I have in mind and feel free to chime in with better Idea's!

I'll clean this barrel down to bare metal with JB. I'll fire 20 rounds at a pace that I normally would in a Fclass match. Let the barrel sit for 1 week. Then fire 20 more rounds and immediately run 3 patches of Montana Extreme bore solevent down the tube while the barrel is still hot. Let it sit wet for 2hr. Then do just a general cleaning with a wet bronze brush, and patching out until the patches are coming out white. Scope the bore and report the results. (note this is a 6mm bore) This is where my questions come in on the experiment. With my hunting rifles I always have them fouled during hunting season, but I still run 1 patch of Butch's gun oil down them (a lite coating) to just keep the barrel (s) protected from the elements. Would this be unfair for the experiment? It's hard for me to believe that no one would at least coat the barrel with some kind of gun oil even if not following routine cleaning, but I'll leave this one up to you guys? I'm trying to think in real life here... So what are your thoughts?


As to what BoydAllen & fdshuster have stated. I agree with them 100% (with bore scopes) Don't get me wrong. I love my bore scope and they are a very handy tool to have! When I first got my bore scope I was excited to inspect my bores! After about the 5th phone call to my Smith, with things I had seen in my bores. I got my you know what chewed out! ;D I was worrying over every little thing. If a barrel is a shooter, it is a shooter. If it isn't, then it isn't. When I scope now I'm only looking for severe fouling, fire cracking, tooling marks (new barrels) Un-uniformed rifling etc etc. (major problems) I use my bore scope inspecting camera body's, brass, dies, neck sizing bushing, showing friends the difference between a custom barrel and a factory barrel, checking out used barrels I'm intrested in buying etc!! Point is I use it a lot more for other things....Other than fixing what isn't broke! However I still say if a bore scope fits your budget then buy one! They are very handy! I don't regret spending the money for mine at all!

So Nomad, Fdshuster, BoydAllen, or anyone else. What do you think would be good steps or procedures to take for a honest Experiment?