Hornady concentricity gauge

[Kenny474]

Has anyone tried "straightening" rounds with one of these yet? I have played with one a bit, and I was simply unimpressed with the results and method of straightening. I am curious as someone on another forum tells me that rounds straightened with it will be just as good as those loaded with low run-out. I fail to believe it, as it only measures off the bullet and has no reference as to where the run-out is coming from. I just can't see pushing on the side of the bullet solving much if the neck is off center or the case body is shaped like a banana.

So is this yet another case of a manufacturer claiming the impossible, or am I really missing something?

I have an H&H tool that is supposed to do the same thing, and the rounds "straightened" with it are not as accurate as those loaded with low run-out. It looks as though the Hornady tool operates in much the same manner, so I can't see how it can be a "miracle cure" for run-out. And if it is that good, than why do we all strive for low run-out and take so many steps to achieve it when we can just bend our ammo around and get the same end result?

 

[UK]

Hi Kenny, did a lot of messing about with the Hornady gauge, if you imagine a skipping rope swinging with the curve in the middle, I think thats the condition it measures, I did a lot of testing by grouping below 2 thou and over 2 thou runout rounds, with everything else identical and shot them, the best group came with ammo at the worst end of the concentricity scale. I have cross checked against my sinclair gauge and with very concentric necks before seating straightened a bullet that had a lot of runout. Does it make any difference, who knows?

 

[UK]

ps forgot to say mines up for sale!

 

[Kenny474]

ps forgot to say mines up for sale!

I am going to have to pass on that. I already have one tool that doesn't work for anything but measuring (the H&H) I don't need another.

 

[rick983]

I bought one of the mentioned hornady gages and although I haven't had a chance to try the "re-aligned" ammo on the range, I figure it can't hurt! I'd like to see more actual studies on this subject.

 

[fdshuster]

Kenny474: I tried the Hornady tool when they first became available. What bothered me the most was that I could take ammo that showed runouts of .001" to .002" on the Hornady, check the same rounds on my Sinclair and they would be .004" to .006". I realize they are taking the readings from different points on the case & bullet, but was not impressed with it and it was sold. I continue to use the Sinclair & segregate those very few rounds that have more than .002" of runout, and use them for the less demanding/ not match shooting.

 

[Kenny474]

The fellow who was advocating the Hornady tool also suggested to me that by using rounds with run-out over .003" for fouling shots I would cause damage to my tight chamber, as the bullet was going to "smash into one side" and cause more wear and ruin my tight chamber. I am unconvinced of this, as I jam my bullets pretty hard. Though even if I didn't, I doubt that I am hurting anything by running a round with .003" of TIR.

My defense on the subject of run-out was to take the necessary steps and use proper loading technique to reduce run-out as much as possible and you won't need to be bending your loaded rounds to "fix" them in the first place.

My main issue is that by applying enough force to the side of the bullet to actually move the neck, it must have some impact on neck tension or oblong the mouth of the case as the neck is unsupported as you apply pressure to the bullet with the tool. And what if the run-out isn't in the neck, what effect is pushing on the bullet to make it "straight" going to have then? And if the neck is off center, you will likely make things worse by "fixing" the TIR by pushing the neck and bullet to the side, as the neck/shoulder junction will still be off centerline of the case.

I did make the statement that I have yet to hear of it over on 6mmbr.com, and if the people here haven't heard of it and don't use it, than it probably doesn't work. With all the effort many of the users here put into reducing TIR, a tool to properly fix it with little work would be the best thing since the 6ppc. He replied that just because it's isn't talked about here doesn't mean it doesn't work.
I'm sure that a few thousand guys who are all chasing top accuracy missed a tool that can make all their ammo more accurate by eliminating or reducing TIR in just a few seconds.

 

[Kenny474]

If you feel my last post is off topic, I will delete it.

Take care, Jim

No way, it has benefit so it needs to be here.

 

[bozo699]

Kenny474: I tried the Hornady tool when they first became available. What bothered me the most was that I could take ammo that showed runouts of .001" to .002" on the Hornady, check the same rounds on my Sinclair and they would be .004" to .006". I realize they are taking the readings from different points on the case & bullet, but was not impressed with it and it was sold. I continue to use the Sinclair & segregate those very few rounds that have more than .002" of runout, and use them for the less demanding/ not match shooting.

Kenny, Frank is spot on here, My findings exactly. I have one and if you would like to use it I will gladly ship it to you (one way ;D) It is a novel idea but you can't pollish a t**# ( You can't repair poorly built brass) I thought the hornady was going to be the cats meow. It was a waste of a hundred dallars as far as I am concerned. If you don't want it I think I will sell it and use the proceeds to put towards a higher quality dial indicator for my sinclair concentricity guage.
Wayne.

 

[Kenny474]

Wayne, thanks for the offer, but I already have the H&H concentricity gauge that "straightens" loaded ammo, and it doesn't polish a turd very well either! But it does measure TIR decently, though there are other tools that do a better job.

Sell it and buy the indicator. I would only use it to make a video to demonstrate for the guy from the other forum that loves the thing exactly how bad it sucks.


Like I said before, some of the best shooters in the world are on this forum. If the guys and gals here are not using this tool, that if it worked would have serious benefits for any accuracy shooter, then I am not interested.

 

[fdshuster]

I'm from the school of thought that a lot of runout problems is simply caused by a defective piece of brass. I'm using Wilson chamber seating dies and Forster benchrest w/ the sliding collet(s), Lapua brass, measuring neck wall thickness, seating the bullets incrementally (seat 1/3, rotate, seat 1/3, rotate, seat), never use an inside neck expander, etc. in short, doing everything humanly possible to prevent R/O, and can still still get R/O of .004" to .005" on occassion. Not with all 20 or 40, but maybe 1 or 2 out of each box/group. If the R/O were caused by loading procedures or dies then it seems to me all 20 or 40 would be bad. If procedures and/or dies are the cause why are the majority free of R/O with only a few over .002"? My reasoning: the individual piece of brass was defective from the time it was drawn. These few with excess R/O are kept for first round fouling, basic close range scope adj. and 100 yds. max. Cases are marked so easily identified.

 

[fdshuster]

jim: Each and every case gets lubed with Imperial sizing die wax, dies are kept super clean, never put away with any left-over lube in them. If it were a lube problem, then all 20 or 40 would have R/O. I believe all brass is not created equal, and like anything else an occassional bad one will slip through the cracks. I'll also stop beating this dead horse, one of the most common problems and one that most all have or will encounter.

 

[lpreddick]

a friend gave me his hornady guage to "check it out". i think "chuck it out" is more approrpiate. i also noted .oo4 th on my sinclair was .oo1 on this thing. if .oo4 was measured on the hornady it was almost always due to case deformity and there is no way the guage would correct that no matter how tight you turn the screw. i would think hornady would have tested and tested this thing before selling it. i use a lot of hornady stuff, but not this paperwieght, boat anchor, self defense device, wind chime, etc. my friend is aware of this problem and says "take your time". i return the gizmo tonight.

if i can see you, i can touch you.BANG!

 

[jmatters]

FWIW: I shoot 308 using Lapua brass and BIB 155/187 bullets seated with a Forster competition seater. I expected a lot from my tedious efforts using the Hornaday tool to perfect runout from .004" to <.001". I was really pumped for the best match of my life, knowing I had as near perfect ammo as I have ever made. That day, I saw absolutely NO CHANGE in my score or improvement in bullet placement. The tool now rests on a shelf, and gets pulled out only if I think I have a serious run-out issue.
What I should have done, was buy a Lee Cast Press first. Because after switching from my very old RCBS (no knock on them; my press was probably 20 years old when I got it 15 years ago). Because now, all my ammo comes out WITHIN .002" run-out, and most within .001". So I don't worry about run-out anymore.

 

[Kenny474]

I think the major issue with this tool is how it measures the round and also the point on the round which it measures. With the round held at both ends, and only measuring on the bullet just after the case mouth (the way I saw it demonstrated in a video) or even if you use it on the neck, it can not identify where the TIR is actually coming from. And if you can't find where on the loaded round the run-out is coming from, then how can you actually "fix" it? It will also give you a false positive if the neck is not inline with the case itself and you then adjust the round to read zero, as the neck is still not inline with the center line of the case.
There is just no way you can measure on a single point and indicate what is causing the run-out. The case could be bent like a banana, and if you "realign" the bullet to read zero, it's still bent like a banana yet will give the impression that the round is fixed. Not my idea of a good tool by any means.
The other issue that I have a real problem with, is that after you push on the side of the bullet enough to actually move it or the case neck, what happens to neck tension? The neck is unsupported when you push on the bullet, and since the round is supported by the case head and the tip of the bullet, when you apply pressure to straighten the round it will actually be causing the bullet to push the bottom of the neck out on the side opposite the adjusting screw, and will be causing the bullet to push out from center at the case mouth. How can canting a bullet in the neck in such a manner not have some effect on tension, as it seems it will oblong the neck along it length, especially at the case mouth.
I hope I explained this in a manner that is understandable, as it truly seems as though it would be an issue for those that use the tool.

I am just unconvinced that you can push on the side of a bullet hard enough to either move it in the neck, or bend the neck itself, and not have some effect on tension. I wish I had a strain gauge so I could do some bullet pull testing, or even test pushing the bullet in farther, and see if I have a valid point as it makes me very curious. If I could find a way to attach a hanging scale to the bullet to see how many pounds it took to make the bullet move before and after straightening, I think I would have a valid test result.

Any other thoughts on this?

 

[muleman69]

I also own a Hornady boat anchor and have checked it against my Sinclair. Runout on Hornady .001-.002 would show 004-.006 0n my Sinclair. My fault as it is not the first gimmick I have bought and I'm sure not the last. Having good luck with the new hornady dies though.Hate to say it but runout is comparable with me Redding comp dies

 

[Fotheringill]

I had one until it was returned to Brownells.

If it is not concentric and you make it more concentric with the Hornady, you are pushing somewhere to make it better somewhere else. Same problem will occur, or as stated above, tension or something else is going to be off.

 

[Richard Coody]

tried it and sold it. Have the 21st century now.

i don't see how straightening a bullet won't effect neck tension. consistent neck tension is just as important as concentricity. maybe even more so