forming 20 vartarg from 223 brass HELP

Discussion in 'Small Stuff--22s, 20s, and 17s' started by greg8012, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. greg8012

    greg8012

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    I have tried all the suggestions from friends such as no neck lube, annealing first, use the seater die and use the 222 die first but still get pleats in the neck.. any suggestions? P.S. using imperial wax only on the lower body of the case.. missing something have even ran them into the 221 die with no lube but it still happens
     
  2. CatShooter

    CatShooter Guest

    I use a 221 FireBall FL sizer (pull out the decapping stuff).

    It makes a looooooong neck :) - cut it off, and follow with the 20 cal FL die. I use RCBS-II lube.
     
  3. SShooterZ

    SShooterZ

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    You need a Redding 221 Remington Fireball from 222 or 223 Remington die. Part # 90101.

    Then you can trim them and run them through a 20 Vartarg die.

    You most likely will need to turn the necks too.
     
  4. Rick in Oregon

    Rick in Oregon

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    Check over on saubier.com, as a poster there that has long experience forming VT cases from 223 posted the complete procedure, along with very good photos of each stage of forming.

    This fellow uses LC brass of recent mfg, and produces cases that can operate at slightly higher pressures (higher velocity), and last up to 20+ loading so far to date. I'm using some of his brass in my 20VT, and it's still going strong after 12 loadings.

    Normally I just use R-P 221FB brass, form to 20VT with the Redding 3-die set, and have never had a case crumble, crush or fail in any way. Spendy brass yes, but no tearing out my hair making it either. ;)
     
  5. TominSWNY

    TominSWNY

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    +1 for catshooter's method. Works for me also.
     
  6. LCazador

    LCazador Competitive shooter and reloader for 50 years+ Silver $$ Contributor

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    I use a Redding 221 Fireball full length bushing die and take the guts out. The bushing die has a larger opening at the shoulder/neck junction and does not wrinkle the cases. You will have to cut the excess off and trim to 1.390" and then neck turn the brass to fit your 20 VarTarg chamber and finally run the case thru a 20 VarTarg bushing die to push the shoulder back so it will chamber and size the neck to final dimensions. I anneal before and after case forming/fireforming and use bushings in three different sizes to get the necks sized down for neck turning. Adam Bently was selling Vartarg brass but he's out of it for now at gunsmithing school, however there is a new guy selling and he's over at Saubier and Varmint Hunters. At $80 a hundred it's a bargain. If you need more help, PM me.
     
  7. th82457

    th82457 Silver $$ Contributor

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    I would suggest trying new .222 brass. If you use fired cases - then you will need to anneal before and after resizing. I have had better luck with this than the .223 as case starts with a longer neck & shorter body. The other suggestions apply lube only case body, turn necks & anneal when done. Quite a time consuming process, it would be nice if a manufacturer would either start making Vartarg brass or someone other than Remington would make .221 brass.
     
  8. Rick in Oregon

    Rick in Oregon

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    221FB brass is also offered by Nosler. Excellent brass.
     
  9. th82457

    th82457 Silver $$ Contributor

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    I talked with Nosler directly about a year ago and they said Remington makes their .221 brass. I believe Norma makes most of Nosler's brass - but not in .221. So you get to pay a premium for Nosler brass that is really the same basic brass as Rem. in .221.
     
  10. SShooterZ

    SShooterZ

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    That is quite a surprise and even more, a disappointment as the Remington brass is 50/50 at best in terms of quality. And at that cost, NO THANKS.
     
  11. Rick in Oregon

    Rick in Oregon

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    It is NOT, and I repeat, NOT R-P brass. I'm under a gag order, so can't say more.
     
  12. th82457

    th82457 Silver $$ Contributor

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    If you are correct Rick, then I would try the Nosler. All I know is when I talked to Nosler about their .221 ammo. they told me that Remington manufactured it for them. That has kept me away as if I wanted Rem. brass it would be cheaper to buy Rem. brass. Just know what I was told, maybe you know someone there with better knowledge, I just know what they told me direct over the phone. I have made some .20VT brass from .222 Lapua and it looks quite promising.

    Terry
     
  13. Dvldawg

    Dvldawg Aim small. Miss small Silver $$ Contributor

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    I formed 500 pcs. of Winchester 223 using Redding case forming dies.. Case Forming #1 (90101) and then the Form & Trim die (83101) as an extra step I then ran the brass through a 221 Fireball FL die w/ no decapping rod assembly and the the last one was the 20 VarTarg Die. You will also need an Extended Shellholder #10 (11510) to use with the form dies.. And I do not believe for one second that Remington produces the 221 Fireball brass for Nosler, if that were true they probably manufacture the Lapua brass too :)
     
  14. DogBuster

    DogBuster

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    Just buy them from Ab_Bentley a member here...

    he forms them from new LC 223...
     
  15. queen_stick

    queen_stick

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    off topic with this, but this thread has drawn in a bunch of 20VT shooters, so I think this is a good place to ask...

    Do you guys feel all the work that goes into forming brass is worth it? (as apposed to another 20cal cartridge that does not require forming)

    I've always been intrigued by this cartridge, but always talk myself out of it due to brass quality issues (RP), and the amount of work involved.
     
  16. Rick in Oregon

    Rick in Oregon

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    In a one-word answer: "YES!"

    My rat rifle battery includes cartridges from the 17AH all the way up to the 243 Ackley with many stops along the way. My new all-time favorite of the bunch is the .20 VarTarg. Besides being the most pure fun, it also gives the best field performance of the lot when you consider it's good for 500 yards on rats, and does it with a miserly 18~grs of powder with almost zero recoil (see all your hits/misses) lack of barrel heating, and accuracy that seems inherient in this little wonder.

    "Yes Loretta, there IS a Santa Claus....in the form of the .20 VarTarg". :)
     
  17. th82457

    th82457 Silver $$ Contributor

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    I second Rick's opinion. I have a rifle in every .222 based cartridge except a .17 Rem. and had a .221 fireball, the .20 VT is the one I get the most consistent accuracy results with from load to load and is so light in recoil that it seems like shooting a .22. I have a .204 that is a close second - but it takes 8-10 gr. more powder to achieve 300-400 more fps and slightly less accuracy with noticeably more recoil. It would be nice to have really good factory brass - but I have had excellent accuracy with resized Rem. .221 brass as well as Adam Bentleys' L.C. brass as well as my own reformed Lapua brass. I did not mean to get anyone's dander up on the Nosler brass - again I did talk with a Nosler rep. on the phone and know what they told me. If they indeed make their own brass or Norma makes .221 brass for them - then I would be the 1st to suggest using their brass for the VarTarg.

    Terry
     
  18. DogBuster

    DogBuster

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    Rumor has it...Lapua building 221 Fireball brass next year ?
     
  19. itchyTF

    itchyTF

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    With all of you with experience with various .20's, how does the .20 Practical compare? Case forming is nothing more than a neck down.
     
  20. L.Sherm

    L.Sherm Silver $$ Contributor

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    The 20 Prac. is one of the easiest so called wildcat's to form brass for. Mine is a no turn neck just use a Redding 223 bushing die and use the appropiate bushing for the brass your using one pass and your done
     
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