Flat Line 30 cal

[avidflyer]

Saw a recent post about the Warner Flat Lines, never heard much about the 180’s. It seemed what little I heard about the 198’s were, they are / can be a little finicky and couldn't get good day to day repeatability. Anyone use the 180’s last season?

 

[Jdne5b]

@Ned Ludd shot them some.

 

[avidflyer]

@Ned Ludd shot them some.

Thought Greg shot the 198’s I’m probably wrong knowing him he tried both.

 

[Jdne5b]

Thought Greg shot the 198’s I’m probably wrong knowing him he tried both.

He shot the 180s and would have won by a mile if he had put them all on his own target.

Shot the 198s also..

 

[Ned Ludd]

I shot both...started with the 180s in a 9-twist barrel, then had a new 8-twist barrel chambered for the 198s. In my hands, the 180s behaved better than the 198s, which showed occasional unexpected and unexplained vertical - something that I still haven't figured out. Both exhibited excellent [minimal] wind deflection, pretty much as expected from their BCs/velocities. However, they were noticeably more picky with regard to load development/tuning than some of the quality lead core bullets currently in use such as the 200.20X.

The only time I shot the 198s in competition was at the MO State match at Bucksnort last May. They performed exceedingly well through the first 4 matches in fairly challenging wind conditions. Unfortunately, I experienced horrible vertical in the 2nd and 3rd matches on Sunday (i.e. - a train wreck). After shooting well on Saturday, I shot a 200-12X in the first match that Sunday, then proceeded to drop 7, and 5 points, respectively, in the next two matches, even though the wind conditions were essentially identical. All the points dropped were to vertical; I don't recall that a single shot was out of the 10-ring right/left. I shot the clean with a good X-count in the first match, then scored, then shot the second match about 30 minutes later. As mentioned, the wind conditions seemed pretty much identical, and I doubt the load, the rifle, or my ability to shoot suddenly went to pot during that intervening 30 minutes. So I really have no idea what happened.

Given the very high cost, I have personally come to find their use in F-TR a little hard to justify, especially with the strange vertical problems that myself and others have experienced with the 198s. Nonetheless, I wouldn't strongly discourage anyone else from trying them - it's entirely possible I simply didn't give them exactly what they wanted, or may have missed something. Monolithic solids certainly have some differences as compared to lead core bullets. For one thing, they are likely harder and not as compressible. Because they have a much lower sectional density than a lead core bullet, they are also much longer for a given weight. That requires buying a faster twist barrel (at minimum a 9-twist for the 180s, and an 8-twist for the 198s). They also have a noticeably shorter bearing surface, and therefore require a much shorter freebore than a comparable weight lead core bullet. Taken together, that means you pretty much need a dedicated barrel to shoot these bullets, as they may not shoot optimally in a barrel having a twist rate and long freebore optimized for a comparable weight lead core bullet. If cost is an issue, that can be an expensive proposition, because you may not find a good use for such a unique barrel if you don't find the Flatlines to your liking. For me personally, it was a good experiment and worth the investment if for no other reason than as a learning experience. Nonetheless, take these considerations into account carefully before making any decision.

For anyone wanting to try them, I would actually suggest buying them in quantity if they are able to work up a preliminary load that looks promising. That may seem to be an odd suggestion after my comments above. However, the reason for this suggestion is that although bullet dimensional variance within a single Lot of the Flatline bullets is essentially nonexistent, there can be Lot-to-Lot dimensional variation, just as you'd expect with lead core bullets. It's not as large as I typically find between different Lots of Bergers, for example, but it's there nonetheless. Because of the extremely high price, I initially only purchased 500 of the 180s. By the time I finished load development, setting the tuner, and load validation, I didn't have all that many left. Because the new Lot had some ever so slight dimensional differences from the previous Lot, I felt compelled to go through a new load development process, and I again found myself with not as many left over for shooting in matches as I would have liked. As a result, I would have probably been better off buying 1000, all from the same Lot, rather than two different Lots of 500.

So for anyone that tries them and finds a load to their liking, take that advice for whatever you think it's worth. Yes - they are very expensive. But if you test them and like the way they perform, and ultimately end up buying two different Lots of 500 like I did, my opinion is that you'd have been better off buying 1000 from a single Lot at the outset. Ultimately, the cost would have been essentially the same, but I wouldn't have found it necessary to utilize nearly as many bullets in load development, and would have had a lot more left over to shoot in matches.

 

[coolbox]

I shot both...started with the 180s in a 9-twist barrel, then had a new 8-twist barrel chambered for the 198s. In my hands, the 180s behaved better than the 198s, which showed occasional unexpected and unexplained vertical - something that I still haven't figured out. Both exhibited excellent [minimal] wind deflection, pretty much as expected from their BCs/velocities. However, they were noticeably more picky with regard to load development/tuning than some of the quality lead core bullets currently in use such as the 200.20X.

The only time I shot the 198s in competition was at the MO State match at Bucksnort last May. They performed exceedingly well through the first 4 matches in fairly challenging wind conditions. Unfortunately, I experienced horrible vertical in the 2nd and 3rd matches on Sunday (i.e. - a train wreck). After shooting well on Saturday, I shot a 200-12X in the first match that Sunday, then proceeded to drop 7, and 5 points, respectively, in the next two matches, even though the wind conditions were essentially identical. All the points dropped were to vertical; I don't recall that a single shot was out of the 10-ring right/left. I shot the clean with a good X-count in the first match, then scored, then shot the second match about 30 minutes later. As mentioned, the wind conditions seemed pretty much identical, and I doubt the load, the rifle, or my ability to shoot suddenly went to pot during that intervening 30 minutes. So I really have no idea what happened.

Given the very high cost, I have personally come to find their use in F-TR a little hard to justify, especially with the strange vertical problems that myself and others have experienced with the 198s. Nonetheless, I wouldn't strongly discourage anyone else from trying them - it's entirely possible I simply didn't give them exactly what they wanted, or may have missed something. Monolithic solids certainly have some differences as compared to lead core bullets. For one thing, they are likely harder and not as compressible. Because they have a much lower sectional density than a lead core bullet, they are also much longer for a given weight. That requires buying a faster twist barrel (at minimum a 9-twist for the 180s, and an 8-twist for the 198s). They also have a noticeably shorter bearing surface, and therefore require a much shorter freebore than a comparable weight lead core bullet. Taken together, that means you pretty much need a dedicated barrel to shoot these bullets, as they may not shoot optimally in a barrel having a twist rate and long freebore optimized for a comparable weight lead core bullet. If cost is an issue, that can be an expensive proposition, because you may not find a good use for such a unique barrel if you don't find the Flatlines to your liking. For me personally, it was a good experiment and worth the investment if for no other reason than as a learning experience. Nonetheless, take these considerations into account carefully before making any decision.

For anyone wanting to try them, I would actually suggest buying them in quantity if they are able to work up a preliminary load that looks promising. That may seem to be an odd suggestion after my comments above. However, the reason for this suggestion is that although bullet dimensional variance within a single Lot of the Flatline bullets is essentially nonexistent, there can be Lot-to-Lot dimensional variation, just as you'd expect with lead core bullets. It's not as large as I typically find between different Lots of Bergers, for example, but it's there nonetheless. Because of the extremely high price, I initially only purchased 500 of the 180s. By the time I finished load development, setting the tuner, and load validation, I didn't have all that many left. Because the new Lot had some ever so slight dimensional differences from the previous Lot, I felt compelled to go through a new load development process, and I again found myself with not as many left over for shooting in matches as I would have liked. As a result, I would have probably been better off buying 1000, all from the same Lot, rather than two different Lots of 500.

So for anyone that tries them and finds a load to their liking, take that advice for whatever you think it's worth. Yes - they are very expensive. But if you test them and like the way they perform, and ultimately end up buying two different Lots of 500 like I did, my opinion is that you'd have been better off buying 1000 from a single Lot at the outset. Ultimately, the cost would have been essentially the same, but I wouldn't have found it necessary to utilize nearly as many bullets in load development, and would have had a lot more left over to shoot in matches.

Would you say that the 180s are more accurate or less finicky than the 198s?

 

[Ned Ludd]

The 180s were perhaps a little easier to tune than the 198s. However, neither of those bullets was as easy to tune in as a good lead core bullet, IMO. Likely due to the differences in their properties as compared to lead core bullets, both seem more finicky and prone to fliers, especially vertical. Using an uber high BC bullet is certainly desirable, but not at the expense of good precision. Most things in precision shooting that look too good to be true usually are. I think the best evidence to support that idea is that a number of F-TR shooters have tried them in the past, including myself. No doubt we were all lured by the stupidly high BC values. However, to the best of my knowledge, none of the F-TR shooters that have tried them are still using them, nor did any go on F-TR winning sprees with crazy high match scores while shooting them.

Can they be made to do what you're wanting them to do? Maybe...possibly...who knows? You can only try them and see how they shoot in your hands, or come up with a different plan. I know a couple of the other shooters that tried these bullets for F-TR and I would say we tested them out pretty thoroughly. But no one is perfect and it's certainly possible we may have left something on the table, or missed that one little thing they wanted in order to be consistent.

 

[coolbox]

The 180s were perhaps a little easier to tune than the 198s. However, neither of those bullets was as easy to tune in as a good lead core bullet, IMO. Likely due to the differences in their properties as compared to lead core bullets, both seem more finicky and prone to fliers, especially vertical. Using an uber high BC bullet is certainly desirable, but not at the expense of good precision. Most things in precision shooting that look too good to be true usually are. I think the best evidence to support that idea is that a number of F-TR shooters have tried them in the past, including myself. No doubt we were all lured by the stupidly high BC values. However, to the best of my knowledge, none of the F-TR shooters that have tried them are still using them, nor did any go on F-TR winning sprees with crazy high match scores while shooting them.

Can they be made to do what you're wanting them to do? Maybe...possibly...who knows? You can only try them and see how they shoot in your hands, or come up with a different plan. I know a couple of the other shooters that tried these bullets for F-TR and I would say we tested them out pretty thoroughly. But no one is perfect and it's certainly possible we may have left something on the table, or missed that one little thing they wanted in order to be consistent.

Thank you for the detailed response. I might stick with the jacketed bullets perhaps.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thank you for the detailed response. I might stick with the jacketed bullets perhaps.

Unless you A) already have rifle setups that will allow you to participate in these events, B) are retired with nothing else to do, C) are wealthy enough to pour money down a rabbit hole on occasion, D) have slightly masochistic tendencies, or E) some combination of all the above, I think that is probably a wise choice . As I stated previously, I enjoyed going through the process, but I don't really have any desire to do it twice. LOL

 

[XTR]

My experience is similar to the above with the exception that I never found a load for the 198 that would work for me. Some promise here and there but never found a load that would hold together for 20 shots and not give me vertical.

I shot about 700 of them through a 1:8 in ‘18.

 

[coolbox]

Unless you A) already have rifle setups that will allow you to participate in these events, B) are retired with nothing else to do, C) are wealthy enough to pour money down a rabbit hole on occasion, D) have slightly masochistic tendencies, or E) some combination of all the above, I think that is probably a wise choice . As I stated previously, I enjoyed going through the process, but I don't really have any desire to do it twice. LOL

Haha, none of the above!!
Thank you.