E-Target Rules Changes

Discussion in 'Competition Forum (All Calibers)' started by Rick Ratzlaff, Feb 1, 2018.

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  1. Rick Ratzlaff

    Rick Ratzlaff Gold $$ Contributor

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    The National Rifle Association is preparing rule changes for E-Targets.

    Ranges invest significant funds for Electronic Target systems. Major events are using ET systems. Hundreds of shooters invest money and effort participating at competitions. The results are used for grading shooters and setting National records.

    However, there is no direct or indirect evidence, or criteria ensuring that a target system is designed, manufactured, properly set up, properly calibrated, maintained as per Manufacturers published User Instructions or objectively qualified to any standard.

    Ranges who offer “For Record” results, and the opportunity to Set National Records, are responsible for reporting legitimate results. Match directors must objectively assure shooters, that their E-Targets are qualified to meet NRA Certification at all “Courses of Fire”.

    Therefore, it is logical that shooters expect consistency from range to range. That can only be achieved through an objective Certification process.

    Hex Systems Pty Ltd. and goBallistic support NRA rule review and recommends a standardized Certification Process for E-Targets to ensure fair competition across the sport.

    The following is a summary of recommendations from Hex Systems Pty Ltd. and goBallistic.

    NRA: Establish certification requirements for E-Targets in precision and reliability for all shooting courses of fire. Establish maximum parameters for calibers bullet weights, at all distances, in worst case scenario i.e. 223 with an 80-gr bullet at 1000 yards, under windy conditions. Testing procedures governing the Certification process.

    Vendors: Must publish Target Specifications and limitations, precision testing and test procedures used for target certification, and the testing results. Manufacturer must publish sufficient testing details to allow for independent verification. The target must perform satisfactorily in all quadrants of the target and at variable environmental conditions (i.e. weather) which is defined by NRA in their certification requirements. Environmental conditions at time of test must be disclosed in the target test results. Vendors must publish calibration skills required, equipment’s “Best Practices”, setup, and maintenance guidelines.

    Ranges: The range must, by published post, assure shooters that the match E-targets have been set up, calibrated, and maintained in accordance with manufacturers published operations instructions. Any two of Match Directors and/or Range officers from the using range must attest by signature to match results, that the certified E-Targets in use, have been set up, calibrated, and maintained as per the Vendor’s Best Practices and User’s Manual.

    Certification Standards:
    1. Max .25 inches in a summary Standard Deviation, at all courses of fire, for all calibres, under any environmental and setup conditions experienced, repeatable in match scenarios.

    2. If a target fails to report a shot in the scoring area, the target is disqualified.

    3. Any falsely reported shot disqualifies the target.

    4. On the firing line, “calibre used” entry is not useful data. i.e. The radius difference between .308 and .223 is 1.079 mm. No target scoring system can measure to that precision.
    We support the NRA’s effort to maintain high scoring standards, in keeping with a healthy competitive spirit in competitions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  2. FatBoy

    FatBoy

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    Rick,

    You keep pushing like this and you're not going to have a sport to sell targets for. Piling more crap on the MDs, for whatever reason, is not going to get you the result you're looking for.

    Chris
     
  3. Medic505

    Medic505 Dean Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

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    If the NRA was interested in "keeping a healthy competitive sprit in competitions" E targets would be banned from National Championship Matches.
     
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  4. 308sawyer

    308sawyer Silver $$ Contributor

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    This sounds like more propaganda and more hear say. BN
     
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  5. KWeigel

    KWeigel whunt_64 Silver $$ Contributor

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    As soon as I see HEX I know there is an agenda to the post.
     
  6. Dos XX

    Dos XX Russell Myers Gold $$ Contributor

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    I submit rule #1025 concerning E targets:

    "No E targets are to be used in any match that can report national records."

    How do i get this on the agenda?

    All in favor say "Aye".
     
  7. Puzzaz01

    Puzzaz01 Gold $$ Contributor

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    Aye!
     
  8. BIG D

    BIG D Gold $$ Contributor

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    I can't bite my tongue. I think this guy needs a smaller shovel to dig his hole a little slower! WOW!
     
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  9. FatBoy

    FatBoy

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    curious how many people who vote Aye have ever ran a match....
     
  10. Sniper338

    Sniper338 Silver $$ Contributor

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    Tag, cuz this thread should get good.
     
  11. Puzzaz01

    Puzzaz01 Gold $$ Contributor

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    Nope never ran a match..... I just shoot and pull targets. Just don't agree with a possible error in the system causing a DQ. and as far as national records I think they should be visually inspected and measured by a human not an electronic device in which we are told to trust.
     
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  12. Sniper338

    Sniper338 Silver $$ Contributor

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    X2. Nothing replaces a paper target, to have in hand.

    electronic for practice... Im all in..
     
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  13. Keith Glasscock

    Keith Glasscock True believer - Straight 284 Gold $$ Contributor

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    I wrote a very detailed set of recommendations to the sub committee. From my perspective, a lot of points are both won and lost my margins less than the .25" specified in the rules. To leave the outcome of a shot up to random error in the scoring system feels a little too much like playing the lottery rather than measuring the accuracy of the competitor.

    If anyone is interested in my comments, I would be happy to either post them or share them privately.
     
  14. Puzzaz01

    Puzzaz01 Gold $$ Contributor

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    Exactly!!!
     
  15. Dos XX

    Dos XX Russell Myers Gold $$ Contributor

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    I would like to see them posted.
     
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  16. Keith Glasscock

    Keith Glasscock True believer - Straight 284 Gold $$ Contributor

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    Here you go...

    First, let me thank all of you for taking the time to read this entire request. I know it is quite long, but I believe that I should explain not only the requested rules changes in regards to E-Targets, but the rationale behind those changes.

    The goals of this series of rule changes is to: Maintain the original game as it was played prior to the introduction of E-Targets, comprehensively address the accuracy issues that all current E-Targets exhibit, and to ensure fairness and continued viability of High Power shooting while incorporating E-Target systems extensively. To make these requested rules changes easy to understand, the requests will be broken down into the three segments described.

    Maintaining the game as played:

    [Rewritten and Numbered Rule] 10.17.1(g)(1)

    In F-Class and other prone slow-fire competition, a seven (7) second

    delay in the presentation of the last shot fired on the firing line monitor is required. When used in F-Class and other prone slow-fire competition and whenever possible and practicable, the system should be programmed so as to display the words “Waiting” during the 7- second delay and to show a digital

    count-down of the seconds until the score is displayed. In the event of additional shots arriving at the

    target during the “Waiting” period, those shots shall be displayed as well as the initial shot. If possible, the system should display the time of arrival of each hit in order to assist the scorer in determining which shot was fired by the competitor. If the competitor fires a subsequent shot during the 7 second delay, that shot shall be scored a miss.


    [New Rule] 10.17.1(g)(2)

    In the case of multiple hits when the competitor has only fired one shot, and it cannot be determined which is the competitors, rule 14.10(b)(1) shall be applied.

    [Rewritten Rule] 14.10(b)(1)

    When targets are scored in the pit or electronic targets are used, if more than one hit appears

    when the assigned competitor fires a single shot, display spotters in all hits, score

    the hit of highest value, and disregard the lower value hit(s).

    Rationale: Slow fire competition should be just that, and the presentation of the result of a shot should closely simulate a pit-pulled target in order to prevent F-class competitors from firing too rapidly. Similarly, the rules must prohibit the competitor from firing again while the system is simulating a target “down” in the pits. The penalty for firing at a target that is “down” during pit-pulling is a miss, thus the penalty with E-targets should be the same.

    Fairness regarding “coaching” by the E-Target:

    [Rewritten Rule] 10.17.1(d)

    Every shot hitting an electronic target must have its result, with its location, relative to the scoring rings, and value, displayed on a monitor placed on the firing point. At no time during firing shall the monitor display to the competitor more than the last shot fired except when complying with rule 10.17.1(g)(1) for multiple hits. The display of shots on the monitor shall only show the position of the shot relative to the scoring rings, and shall not show X or Y coordinates, nor sight corrections to center, to the competitor while firing. The monitor shall not allow zooming in during competition, and the shot impact representation shall be a circle that is scaled to the size of not less than twenty-five percent (25%) of the X ring diameter.


    [New Rule] 10.17.1(k)

    In the event the system detects a shot that is scored a miss because it failed to strike the target face, the system shall not display the direction of that miss to the competitor.

    Rationale: Competitors firing under other scoring systems are not allowed coaching during firing. The E-Target system should not coach the competitor through exact hit coordinates, sight corrections, high resolution impact depictions, or miss direction indications. The 25% sizing of the shot spot was determined by evaluating the smallest spotter discs currently used in F-class competition (also the smallest readily visible from a firing line)

    Accuracy Issues:

    Discussion: While there is a lively debate ongoing surrounding the mechanical accuracy of current target systems, the current rules regarding accuracy of the system are truly inadequate to determine winners from losers in many events. I’m sure, as active high-power competitors, that you have all seen shots that landed just touching, or a very small distance outside of a ring. With an accuracy requirement of .25”, it would be impossible to truly determine the winner in a close match (most of them these days). To eliminate a sport destroying loss of confidence in the results, the following rule changes are strongly suggested:

    [Rewritten Rule] 10.17

    Electronic Scoring Targets—Electronic scoring targets are authorized for all events. When electronic scoring targets are used, targets must be checked for functioning and accuracy under the supervision of the Match Director or Technical Officer, if appointed. The targets shall not be intentionally set to offset bullet impacts away from the paper target center. The individual competitor’s system

    must be set to the bullet diameter currently being used by the competitor.

    Note: It is recommended that an observer/scorer be present at each firing

    point when a competitor is firing to assist/score in applying the rules.


    [Rewritten Rule] 10.17.1(e)

    Electronic targets are required to use either a new paper target center or a target with all previous bullet holes pasted for each string of fire. This is to allow challenges and the scoring of the targets in the statistical office, or in the frames.


    [New Rule] 14.1(d)

    When targets are scored electronically, the preliminary scoring will be during firing by the electronic system, following the completion of each string of fire, the score will be verified either in the frame, or in the statistical office. If the score does not verify correctly, rule 14.3.3 shall be used to determine the correct score. The verification step may be waived, but any match in which any targets are not verified is not eligible for establishing national records nor national championships. This waiver does not eliminate the requirement for a clean target face prior to firing, as the competitor’s right to challenge is maintained.



    [Rewritten Rule] 14.3.1

    When targets are scored on the frames, the scorer will enter the value of each shot and the total on the score card, announcing the values to the competitor in this manner, “Mr. Blank, 5 tens, 4 nines, 1 eight, total score 94.” When targets are scored from electronic target monitors, the preliminary scores will be copied in the order they were shot and recorded on the monitor into the scorebook.



    [New Rule] 14.3.3

    When verifying the score reported by an electronic scoring system, if the score visible on paper does not match the score reported by the system, or a challenge to the score is filed, the following procedure is to be used. These procedures assume that the electronic target is capable of showing the X and Y coordinates of each shot fired. In the event X and Y coordinates are not available, the target will be evaluated for score based solely on the lines on the target face with no regard for virtual center. In no event shall the electronic score supersede the score determined by careful evaluation of the paper target.

    (a) If it is possible to determine which shots are the first two sighting shots fired, use those shots for determining the X and Y offsets of the system, otherwise, use the two shots most distant from the target center.

    (b) Measure the location of each of the two shots selected, in (a) above, relative to the X and Y axis. Compare that shot to the location reported by the electronic target system. Determine the average X and Y offset of those two shots. The average X and Y offset values shall be used as the virtual center of the target for scoring.

    (c) Using an overlay, or other precision method of measurement, determine the correct value of each shot that disagrees with the reported score, and any shot that may change score as a result of shifting the target center to the virtual center.

    (d) Utilizing the values from (c) above, determine the corrected final score for the string.

    Rationale: Because the electronic target can have the virtual center offset from the actual center of the paper, the shooter may be making corrections based on inaccurate feedback from the system. In this case, the target center for evaluating the score should be the same as the center as perceived by the competitor during firing.


    Rule Consistency:

    [Rewritten Rule 3.22]

    3.22 Electronic Devices – With the exception of monitors used for electronic target systems, competitors are responsible to ensure that all electronic communications and audio devices in their possession forward of the ready line are silenced and communication disabled.

    (a) During team matches only, team members may communication with each other via communication devices. These communication devices must only be capable of communicating with other team members, and must not interfere with safety, range operations, or other competitors.

    (b) Radars, chronographs and other devices designed to measure bullet velocity are prohibited on the line.

    (c) Cell phones that have been rendered incapable from communicating (“airplane mode”) are permitted on the line and in the pits.

    (d) Devices used as monitors for electronic targets may not transmit, nor receive any information other than the information provided for in these rules.


    NOTE: Communications between the line and the pit during team matches is forbidden.



    Rationale: There is currently an incompatibility between the WiFi target systems used and the current rules. This corrects that incompatibility while maintaining the intent of the rule.


    Thank you again for taking time to read my rule change suggestions. While there may be some argument regarding these suggestions, I would welcome the opportunity to speak with the committee directly to explain anything that is unclear.


    Please feel free to call or write me.

    Keith Glasscock
     
  17. FatBoy

    FatBoy

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    I can't and won't argue about the accuracy of paper, as it would be foolish. However, I am watching the average age of competitors creep up to the low to mid 60s, and participating over the last 15 years cut in half or less, I have to wonder how much longer NRA highpower is going to be a sport with demographics like this ?

    I see people going to other sports, mainly PRS style, 10:1. When I ask why the younger guys go that route, it's not the whole Ninja sniper crap. It's that they get 150 -200 rounds down range in a weekend, with way less rules and half the time on range . When you're there, you're either shooting or BS'ing. Rifles cost the same, ammo costs the same . Match fees are substantially more but they sell out in minutes. How do we compete with this and grow HP?

    We have a pretty healthy club, and we sustain a decent number of shooters but part of that is using e-targets to keep those who can no longer work the pits, on the firing line.

    I'm not defending their choice. I'm not biased toward any target, e or otherwise, but I do see the writing on the wall if something doesn't change .
     
  18. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Silver $$ Contributor

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    Conventional shooter numbers may have decreased in recent years, but F-Class is still growing at a healthy rate as a sport. If some shooters choose to pursue alternative shooting opportunities solely so they can spray more rounds down range "with way less rules and half the time on the range", then they probably won't be missed anyhow.

    Changing the rules and/or scoring systems used in such way that it actually changes HOW a sport is played, or merely for the purpose of attracting larger numbers of competitors is a foolish goal and in the long run will hurt the sport more than it will help. At some level, the competitors themselves have to possess a certain level of motivation, dedication, and a desire to participate in a given sport the way it is already played. If they don't possess these attributes, I'd personally much rather they chose some shooting sport other than F-Class/High Power that is more in line with their goals and expectations, rather than change the Rules and Match formats merely to appease them. Even if it meant fewer competitors on the line, I'd much rather be shooting alongside people that are dedicated to shooting a specific discipline the same way I am and that really want to be there. If they want to change the sport into something different, they are always free to go and start their own shooting discipline elsewhere in any form they choose.

    E-targets may ultimately be the future of F-Class/High Power whether people like myself want it or not. If so, now is the time to lay out a very specific and well-though out set of rules to govern their use in the sport, not wait until later and "see what happens". Keith's suggested rule changes are clearly a good start toward that goal.
     
  19. Taildrag15X

    Taildrag15X

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    Aye and yes I've ran many Matches over the years, XTC and HP Prone, Approved and Registered..
     
  20. Bindi2

    Bindi2

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    I have been shooting on E Ts for six years. I would fight these rule changes. If I lost I would walk away from the sport.
    The seven second rule will cause more trouble than it is worth for scoring, who owns which shot.
    The speed the shooter uses is his choice there are pitfalls.
    The forming of a group or the display of X & Y is not coaching people plot their shots on paper now.
    I could go on but why this post negates all benefits ETs bring to shooting.
    You still want a full pit crew, new paper centres for each shooter with perfect alinement to the acoustic centre.
    My Question to this paper why spend money buying ETs when you want to use them as pulled targets
     
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