Does point shape matter?

Discussion in 'Practical Precision--PRS, NRL, ELR' started by ridgeway, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. ridgeway

    ridgeway Silver $$ Contributor

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    When pointing bullets, does the angle of the pointed surface matter? If so, why? I know some punches will make more of less of an angle in relationship to the ogive.
     
  2. XTR

    XTR

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    Until about 2 yrs ago I pointed all of my bullets with the Whidden insert for the older SMKs and Juggernauts (back when they were called LRBTs). My rifles shot great. I've recently gotten the correct insert for the VLD/Hybrid style noses. I can't tell any difference, though it probably makes a fraction of a % better BC.
     
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  3. damoncali

    damoncali Bullet Maker Site $$ Sponsor

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    Yes, a little. How much is difficult to quantify. But it’s small. I would worry more about pointing consistently and without damaging the bullet than the precise angle of the point.
     
  4. ridgeway

    ridgeway Silver $$ Contributor

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    Yes... I understand consistency and damage the other profiles of the bullet. That brings up another question, lol. I use a Hoover die and have several punches and they are recommended for certain bullets. So that being said... I can use a punch that pretty much follows the profile of the ogive or experiment with another that will make a larger included angle for the point. The latter of the two takes less force and effort to make a point. Which one is considered right/wrong.
     
  5. damoncali

    damoncali Bullet Maker Site $$ Sponsor

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    I honestly don't know what logic they used to make the angles they did. Pragmatically speaking, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in terms of BC for slight changes in angle. It would seem that it's possible that one or the other is more likely to damage a bullet. But I really have no idea.

    You can think of pointing as reshaping the tip of the bullet nose (as opposed to shrinking the meplat). There are nose shapes that are better than the typical flat point match bullet - bullets with hemispherical tips, and other curved shapes for example. Conical pointing is just an approximation of those shapes.

    Data for small changes in profile like this for match bullets is basically unavailable publicly, if at all, so who knows. Nobody to my knowledge has studied it rigorously. But what we do know is that nose shape changes of any kind are a small effect, and the impact will vary from bullet to bullet based on other parameters.
     
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  6. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Gold $$ Contributor

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    The pointing die insert must increase the angle of the ogive at the tip...otherwise, it wouldn't make the meplat smaller and point the bullet. Selecting a die insert that is too close to the pre-existing contour (angle) of the ogive will mean you need a very long point in order to substantially close the meplat. IMO - that will increase the likelihood of overpointing (generating a "bulge" behind the point). In contrast, selecting a die insert that increases the ogive angle very sharply will close the meplat more readily, but it also means a shorter and more abrupt point, which may not provide the largest increase in BC possible. The idea is to select the die insert that is the best compromise of these two extremes. For the two most commonly-used pointing dies, it's not like there are dozens of choices of die inserts from which to choose.

    As an example, in the case of the Whidden die, if you used Insert #0 to point bullets for which Insert #1 was recommended, you would likely be able to visually tell the points were a little shorter and more abrupt. However, I'd bet money that you'd still get a measurable BC benefit and that most people couldn't shoot the difference between bullets pointed with either insert.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  7. paulT

    paulT

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    I point with a Hoover Tipping die and tried the 185g hybrid bullet tipping insert verses the reccomended 20x insert for some 200.20x Hybrids, groups were shot at 1000y i noticed the 185g hybrid insert pointed 20x bullets seemed to have a longer pointing visual effect on the ogive verses the reccomended 20x insert which showed less pointing on the bullet meplat, The vertical And Horizontal groups shot at 1000y were much better with the 20x bullets with the reccomended 20x bullet insert verses the 185gH insert at a guess i would say the bullets formed a bulge just below the tipped area which caused vertical/horizointal grouping issues verses the reccomended insert which grouped very well all bullets were checked from base to ogive before and during pointing process so as not to change base to ogive measurement which would deform bullet base etc.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  8. kneedtospeed

    kneedtospeed Gold $$ Contributor

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    So what's the Point? :confused:
     
  9. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Gold $$ Contributor

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    The less acute the angle, the longer the point must be in order to close the meplat by a specified amount. A shorter, fatter cone will result in closing the meplat faster than a long narrow one. This can make a difference as to how much one actually has to push the die insert down to close the meplat by 50-75%, thereby increasing the possibility of creating a bulge behind the point or causing other damage to the bullet ogive/nose/jacket (i.e. over-pointing). Although within reason there is probably not a "wrong" way to do it, any differences will be so small that it's unlikely you actually could shoot the difference. For that reason, why not simply use the recommended die insert and minimize the potential for causing a bulge or other damage to the front end of the bullet? You're not going to gain anything by using an insert designed for a longer skinnier bullet nose on a shorter, fatter bullet.

    This is an exaggerated illustration of Whidden inserts #0 and #1. I have accidentally used insert #1 on Berger 185 Hybrids, for which #0 is recommended. I had to set the pointing die micrometer much lower when using the incorrect die insert to achieve the same amount of meplat closure, resulting in a much longer point on the bullet, and very likely, a much greater risk of nose damage. Having said that, I couldn't tell any difference in how the 185s shot when pointed with the wrong insert, although that may not always be the case if the nose actually becomes bulged or damaged in some way by overpointing. In my hands it is only necessary to close the meplat by 50-75% to receive ample benefits from the pointing process. In other words, less is usually more.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
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  10. Whit holman

    Whit holman

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    Just asking never seen a bullet pointed but how can you change the point and not change the rest off the bullets dimensions.
     
  11. XTR

    XTR

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    Points are hollow, the idea is to close up the tip. It's when you push beyond into the lead that you run the risk of bulging the bullets behind the meplat
     
  12. BenPerfected

    BenPerfected Gold $$ Contributor

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    I have been using the Hoover tipping die for a few years. The numerous custom inserts are available to perfectly close the tip on most any bullet. Does this mouse turd reloading step show on paper? Probably not, but what if it helps?.....
    Ben
     
  13. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Gold $$ Contributor

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    As XTR mentioned, the internal design of an open-tipped match bullet has a great effect on the pointing process (i.e. - what works and what will damage the point). Below is an image I pinched from the internet that illustrates quite well the structural considerations involved in pointing a bullet such that the meplat is noticeably closed, but the process has not generated a "bulge" just behind the point.


    Mk262 Mod1 3.jpg
     
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  14. Joe Salt

    Joe Salt Silver $$ Contributor

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    Ben this past weekend I was done shooting at our club match at 1000 yards and while I was shooting noticed I had to add 6 -1/4 min clicks to my scope.
    Couldn't understand why, then I got thinking you Idiot! I was testing bullets that I had not pointed. And believe me it makes a difference at 1000 yards.

    Joe Salt
     
  15. BenPerfected

    BenPerfected Gold $$ Contributor

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  16. Joe Salt

    Joe Salt Silver $$ Contributor

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    Yes I remember you Ben! And I'm telling everyone when pointing is done right it does make a difference.

    Joe salt
     
  17. Goldy

    Goldy

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    I just recently picked up a second hand whidden pointing die. Can someone please show me what a correctly pointed tip is supposed to look like vs one that’s been over pointed. Given the cost of projectiles in Australia I’m keen to not destroy the few boxes of 7mm hybrids I have left. Cheers.
     

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