Does barrel length factor into choosing powders?

[Chris Butler]

I did search on barrel length, burn rate and powder choice.
I'm confused by all that I read

Getting back into loading after a long hiatus.
Recently started competing in precision rifle.
Looking to get more consistent, repeatable results than I've been getting with factory ammo.

The 2 cartridges I want to start loading for are .223 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor
There are 2 common powders the Hodgdon data page recommends, Varget and H4895.
Both my rifles are Savage Model 12's and have 26" barrels.
The bullets I've settled on a SMK 69gr (1:9) and ELD Match 140gr.(1:8)

Thought's on 1 or the other (or both) of these powders for these cartridges?
Likely to add to my confusion, but, are there other powders I should look at instead.

FWIW - The Model 12FCV .223 is my trainer. Next to my 22LR and .17WSM that's the one I shoot the most.

 

[spclark]

Yes, barrel length most assuredly affects powder choice, among other factors including bullet choice and how you prepare reloaded cartridges.

Longer barrels allow more time for complete burning when relatively slower propellants are used. They also allow shooters to achieve bullet velocities shorter barrels won't without using loads that reach pressures close to or beyond safe levels.

Both of those two propellants are old favorites for 223, ought to work well in 6.5 Creedmoor also.

 

[Sniper338]

Id try H4350 in the creedmoor

 

[Chris Butler]

Yes, barrel length most assuredly affects powder choice, among other factors including bullet choice and how you prepare reloaded cartridges.

Longer barrels allow more time for complete burning when relatively slower propellants are used. They also allow shooters to achieve bullet velocities shorter barrels won't without using loads that reach pressures close to or beyond safe levels.

Both of those two propellants are old favorites for 223, ought to work well in 6.5 Creedmoor also.

Thanks for the reply!!!

Id try H4350 in the creedmoor

Thanks much I will do that!
Is IMR 4350 the same stuff?

 

[ranger3]

Thanks for the reply!!!



Thanks much I will do that!
Is IMR 4350 the same stuff?

No its not, H4831 might work in your Creedmoor as well.

 

[RonAKA]

Varget would do the loads you plan for both cartridges, and it is a well proven and trusted powder for target shooting. H4350 in the Creedmoor could be worth trying for a bit more velocity if you need it. These are both temperature insensitive powders. I avoid IMR because of temperature sensitivity.

Another powder(s) to consider is the Vihtavuori line. You can see which of their powders line up with the Hodgdon choices from their Powder Burn Rate Chart. N140 might do both cartridges as well. The potential advantage of the VV powder is that it tends to have lower heat content. Some believe higher heat content powders like Varget are harder on barrels than lower heat. Here is a chart of heat values of some of the powders on the market.

 

[Brians356]

Longer barrels allow more time for complete burning when relatively slower propellants are used.

It's been well established that even the slowest rifle powder burns (as completely as it is ever going to) within a very short distance down the barrel - a matter of a few inches, probably less than a foot. And so it's a myth that pressure might still be rising (and thus velocity lost) when the bullet exits the muzzle if a slow rifle powder is used in a short barrel (unless someone is shooting a "rifle" with a 12-in barrel.) That is NOT to say that a longer barrel doesn't produce more velocity. Pressure will have peaked very quickly, but the hot gases are still expanding, and the bullet will still be accelerating (from a standing start.)

There are good comments on this here by "denton", and "Mule Deer" (aka John Barsness):

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...topics/8796385/Muzzle_Flash_vs_Unburned_Powde
-

 

[Brians356]

Here is a chart of heat values of some of the powders on the market.

Would anyone have heat values for the newer IMR Enduron powders? In particular, 4166 and 4451?
-

 

[rifleman700]

Varget will do well in the 223 but is less than ideal in the 6.5 CM. Varget is a hotter burning powder than H4350 and reaches its 95% APB much earlier than H4350 does. Hotter powder + earlier burn = throat erosion.

Stay with H4350 or IMR4451 with the 6.5 CM

 

[rifleman700]

^^^ Sample of H4350 in 6.5 CM.

 

[rifleman700]

^^^ Sample of Varget with same bullet. Varget is hotter burning plus look at where it reaches a 95% burn. Not good on the throat.

 

[RonAKA]

Would anyone have heat values for the newer IMR Enduron powders? In particular, 4166 and 4451?
-

I got those numbers from a spreadsheet that you can find at the main site here on estimating barrel life. I don't know where the data was sourced from.

One review of the new Enduron powder I have seen is not particularly flattering. They don't seem to have solved the temperature sensitivity issue yet...

 

[rifleman700]

I got those numbers from a spreadsheet that you can find at the main site here on estimating barrel life. I don't know where the data was sourced from.

One review of the new Enduron powder I have seen is not particularly flattering. They don't seem to have solved the temperature sensitivity issue yet...

This review was not negative at all when compared to the Hodgdon powders. They were not as good but they were not bad at all. And remember this was out of one rifle and if you take out the 140 temp data the ES's were 18,20,11 and 21 between all 4 powders from 25-65F.

 

[Chris Butler]

Thank you so much for all the reply's.
Much to learn. Much to consider.
I have 1lb each of H4350, H4895 and Varget coming. That should get me started.

 

[RonAKA]

It's been well established that even the slowest rifle powder burns (as completely as it is ever going to) within a very short distance down the barrel - a matter of a few inches, probably less than a foot.-

So any gun with a barrel longer than 1 foot will have no muzzle flash if fired at night?

 

[Lapua40X]

Appears you're a research kind of guy. So you want good technical information. You can get lots of help on forums like this one but you can also get a lot more confused because you'll have to sort out opinions (and myths) from good information.
I'd suggest you build your experience on a good foundation, like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0195GQFWG/?tag=accuratescom-20
so you'll be able to separate the wheat from the chaff as you educate yourself on this subject.

 

[Chris Butler]

Appears you're a research kind of guy. So you want good technical information. You can get lots of help on forums like this one but you can also get a lot more confused because you'll have to sort out opinions (and myths) from good information.
I'd suggest you build your experience on a good foundation, like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0195GQFWG/?tag=accuratescom-20
so you'll be able to separate the wheat from the chaff as you educate yourself on this subject.

You have me pegged!
Thank you for the input!
The Litz library is on my wishlist
Would you recommend starting with #1, some other volume or wait to buy the whole media package?

 

[Geno C]

So any gun with a barrel longer than 1 foot will have no muzzle flash if fired at night?

In an atmosphere void of oxygen, pretty close. Most of the muzzle flash is not the powder burning but the hot gasses reacting with the oxygen in the atmosphere.

 

[Brians356]

So any gun with a barrel longer than 1 foot will have no muzzle flash if fired at night?

Pretty much everything we shoot unsuppressed will have a bright muzzle flash in the dark. But it's not burning powder kernels exiting, it's hot gases igniting upon exposure to oxygen outside the bore:

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-090.htm
-

 

[Lapua40X]

You have me pegged!
Thank you for the input!
The Litz library is on my wishlist
Would you recommend starting with #1, some other volume or wait to buy the whole media package?

I'd recommend bite the bullet and go into debt (it's a small debt for such great guidance). I did it the slow painful way - borrowing books from my son. Then again, a guy can only absorb so much at one time so maybe one at a time is good enough. IMO, it's not as important how you work your way through Bryan's stuff, just that he's got so much to offer about why bullets behave as they do that any shooter should be exposed to his work.
My good fortune is that Bryan is an engineer and when he enters into the realm of engineering jargon my engineer son is always there to pull me out of deep water.