correct primer choice VS less correct primer choice

Discussion in 'Competition Forum (All Calibers)' started by Northridge, Jan 13, 2019.

  1. Northridge

    Northridge

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    neuvo1.jpg
    Does primer choice matter? its a question that comes up from time to time and my answer is "yes" always "yes" and here is a example that represents well. both powder ladders where identical except primer used, both ladders shot at 800 yards same shooting session same gun. top ladder was a cci BR-4 powder ladder that has been duplicated several times so the base line is set and planform clearly likes cci BR-4's but as I was narrowing my tune adjustments I thought I would throw another primer at it as a comparison and that was the lower target with cci 450 primers. a note for me is two fold usually my tuning formula does not have BR-4 winning out over other options but here they did. clearly as you study the second target the cci 450 primer was really kind of punch drunk and was having trouble with color affinity. velocity region was identical and SD was even similar but one primer type chooses to win out in a big way really. the point is this, I guess if a primer over a broad range is not developing small color affinity you have to try another type. it can make a record setting platform just average or worse if using the wrong primer for the job. Try not to get stuck in a rut either as a primer that wins this time may loose when you re-barrel for another season & have a fresh keg of powder and fresh brass.

    colors as shot low charge to high charge both targets :
    orange-lowest
    black-b
    blue-bl
    red
    green-highest


    Shawn Williams



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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  2. Terry

    Terry Gold $$ Contributor

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    Shaun

    Powder and charges tested would help.
     
  3. SPJ

    SPJ Silver $$ Contributor

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    I'm not following color affinity,or the ladder test.
     
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  4. Northridge

    Northridge

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    Terry charges are a Tenth apart both ladders red , blue , green, green being the highest color or charge. I run a modified throat with this platform and charges are higher than usually safe so I decline on posting actual charges. H4895 is powder being used but I find the same +- in primers no matter the powder be it slow powders and magnum, medium burn rates to quick and so on. this particular rifle is a 17 pound bench gun for 1000 yard bench rest.

    Shawn Williams
     
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  5. Northridge

    Northridge

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    color affinity means when a ladder is being developed you will find a given color or colors that become fond of the same color with the same data in it when the rifle comes into tune the colors that really like the same color will start to land together on paper not random or far apart but close. " color affinity " example when one red color shares a small space with other reds of the same formula they pull one another closer in proximity to each other while at the same time another color is shaping up more like a 30-30 on a heavy wind day.

    Shawn Williams
     
  6. savagedasher

    savagedasher

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    The primer I would use is the one that gives you the lowest Es with the powder you are using
     
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  7. Northridge

    Northridge

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    my findings on targets shot very often do not support the better SD produced from a given primer, there is more to it than just the best SD numbers I have found.

    Shawn Williams
     
  8. savagedasher

    savagedasher

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    I did say SD
    I said Es
     
  9. Northridge

    Northridge

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    pick one same basic result either or let draw both in tight SD of 10 or less ES of 20 or less and Two different primer options that give equal SD and ES one will still be a winner some times by a small margin and often a Large Margin

    Shawn Williams
     
  10. savagedasher

    savagedasher

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    The one ES is all it takes to ruen your day
     
  11. bkluke

    bkluke

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    I can follow the madness, thanks for sharing.

    Brian
     
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  12. dkhunt14

    dkhunt14

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    I totally agree with this. In fact sometimes its the worst. Matt
     
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  13. dkhunt14

    dkhunt14

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    Sometimes a certain primer seems to favor a certain powder. I see a lot of guys using a 450 with RE 15 and others using BR4 with Varget. Matt
     
  14. SPJ

    SPJ Silver $$ Contributor

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    Thank you for taking your time and resources to test and post your findings.
    Jim
     
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  15. LA50SHOOTER

    LA50SHOOTER

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    I'll keep this in mind for sure when I do my load development on the 6mm Norma BR. - I have shot 105's with CCI450's & Varget and didn't get as good of results as I want. - I'll try RL-15 & a couple primers and switch the Varget to a different primer & see what happens.
     
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  16. boltfluter

    boltfluter Gold $$ Contributor

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    Nice test! Thanks for sharing. That is a startling difference .:D:D

    Paul
     
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  17. mikecr

    mikecr

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    Northridge, if you're really into this, maybe you would consider another test.
    With cases FF'd and same head spacing,, case pockets set to uniform depth,, primers set to 4thou crush (for CCIs), and RED charge: Adjust released firing pin protrusion from boltface in 5thou increments in and outward from it's current baseline -for both primers. 3 to 5sht groups at distance.

    I've done this with one chosen primer, it's a PIA, but I found grouping opening and closing very similar to bullet seating testing. It's my hypothesis that changing primers invokes a need for striking tuning(for that primer) as seating is tuned for different bullets.
    If true, you could find that the CCI450 is actually better for your charge than BR4. Maybe. And/or you might find better results with either, than you ever would have without this testing (I did).

    What you'll see for sure is dramatic shifting in results, even while primers reliably fire.
     
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  18. Northridge

    Northridge

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    I know of what you speak of to be fact, in most situations if you dig deep enough you can find a window that most primers will shine just a matter of what combo implemented will draw the most from a given problem. I have found that a given action and firing mechanism will be more fond of one primer or another or maybe a primer that is fond of a given ignition system or another. this would support what you suggest 100 percent. the issue is high accuracy barrel life, a throat is a wearable item and a bit of a commodity. the key for me in a given barrel is to find "disco" as soon as possible and fine tune the formula so tune can support sound targets sooner than later. that's why I suggest not being loyal to one primer or another or any component for that matter. if tuning is fighting you jump ship start a new road map to a new destination. after shooting ladders long enough the keenest eye will have a knack for finding the right path to go on more quickly.
    so what I've learned to do is little advanced studies on each new barrel after finding my money load first but not so much as to give up competitive targets when it matters. years ago I would do as you suggest chasing that knowledge while at the same time pounding the barrel and more imported yet each odd test making my brass more and more un-similar to another. I've been a test freak for almost 28 years now and it still gets me excited thanks for your input.

    Shawn Williams
     
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  19. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Gold $$ Contributor

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    I test loads and primers at 100 yards. I shot this using my 6BRA.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Joe Salt

    Joe Salt Silver $$ Contributor

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    Nature Boy I would try a tenth more powder with the BR-4's!

    Joe Salt
     

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