Bonded VS. Non-Bonded. Is one more accurate?

Discussion in 'ELR, Ballistics & Bullets Board' started by Eternal Student, May 5, 2017.

  1. Eternal Student

    Eternal Student

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    121
    I have noticed that most hunting rounds (unless smaller varmint) are bonded and seems like most of Hornadys match bullets are not. Not sure about Berger but can anyone shine a little light on the subject for me? Thank you.
     
  2. JimPag

    JimPag Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2013
    Messages:
    698
    Most hunting bullets are not bonded, but are of traditional cup and draw design which means the bullets lead-alloy core is mechanically inserted into the jacket, which under extreme conditions the core can separate from the jacket. With a bonded bullet the lead-alloy core is literally fused to the copper alloy jacket and there is no chance of core-jacket separation. Examples of bonded bullets are Hornady Interbonds, Nosler Accubonds, Jack Carter's original Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Bonded bullets are usually used on heavy boned animals, such as Moose, Elk, Big Bears. You want a bullet with good weight retention which will result in deep penetration and the capability to smash thru bones without the core coming apart like a lot of bullets will that are made with the usual cup and draw design. Match bullets are not bonded because they are not a hunting bullet, just made for punching holes in paper. If you want to see how tough your hunting bullets are, just shoot them in a pile of dry newspaper. I have found that most bonded bullets are not as accurate as the regular cup and draw design, with the exception of one and that is Swift's Scirocco II's. Over the years I have found that if you want an accurate hunting bullet, you'd be hard pressed to find anything better than the old Nosler Ballistic Tips. They are just flat out accurate.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
  3. Eddie Harren

    Eddie Harren Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,274
    I'd sure like to see a video of those major bullet manufacturers "pouring" those lead cores into those jackets.

    How long do they have to cool down before point up? What do they do about shrinkage upon cooling? I'd bet that controlling the exact amount of molten lead for each jacket is difficult to say the least. Those little 17 Cal. bullets must be extremely hard to "pour" accurately. Oh well, Back to the funny papers!
     
    Eternal Student likes this.
  4. damoncali

    damoncali Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    769
    I can't imagine anything in a "bonding" process that would help accuracy. And yeah, there's no pouring of lead into match bullets - they are swaged.
     
  5. JimPag

    JimPag Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2013
    Messages:
    698
    Pardon me Eddie, but Speer pours molten lead for making their Hot-Cor bullets, including their Grand Slam and Mag-Tip, while most all others insert a pre-formed lead alloy core.
     
  6. Eddie Harren

    Eddie Harren Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,274
    Well, they got you to believe that Wall St. shinola. Next you'll buy some "Beechwood aged" beer with a "Fresh brewed on date." LOL

    I don't use "lead alloy cores" in my bullets.
     
  7. JimPag

    JimPag Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2013
    Messages:
    698
    Why you run the Idaho plant and you know for a fact they don't do that? Like you say, better than the funny papers. What do you use in your vast experience making bullets?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
  8. johnfred1965

    johnfred1965

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    511
    Don't you mean Madison AVE.?
     
  9. Eddie Harren

    Eddie Harren Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,274

    You made the statement. You show the video.
    For the first 5 years or so I cut cores from lead wire and ran them through a squirt die. Then de-greased them. Put them in the jackets and seated them in a core seater die. I started getting pre cut cores from Charlie Hood and eliminated the cutting process. But, why am I telling you this? You are already an experienced expert on bullet making and the various processes used.
     
  10. JimPag

    JimPag Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2013
    Messages:
    698
    No expert but I've seen Parker making bullets before. We are not talking match bullets, were talking hunting bullets. I've seen the Hot-Cor process in person back in 98 when I was on vacation in Idaho. The person who took us thru the plant was a guy named Darrel Inman who was some big wig there, that's why I asked you if you were the plant manager. My eyes must of been deceiving me I guess since you know all. YOUR A LEGEND IN YOUR OWN MIND EDDIE at least that's what some MD people told me. Making match bullets is not rocket science, that's why so many people are making their own right now.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  11. Eddie Harren

    Eddie Harren Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,274

    As always I defer to your expertise and name dropping ability. Shame that you got so much of your dis-information about me from your pal. Good shooting to you in the future.
     
  12. JimPag

    JimPag Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2013
    Messages:
    698
    What do you mean? Me and my dad were out there and we stopped by and got a tour. I remember the guy's name because one of my best friends growing up had the same name. Pretty easy to remember. As far as what David or anyone else has to say about you, I don't give a rat's ass. I never met you before and I don't judge people by what other people say. I judge people by meeting them face to face and then judge for myself. Some people don't like Dave because he is straight forward and calls a spade a spade. Some people can't handle that. He will give you the shirt off his back if he likes you. I know a bunch of people who don't care for me and that's understandable. I brag and I'm pig headed but I'm the first guy to jump in if somebody needs a hand. I know who and what I am. I am the first to admit when I'm wrong. I am not afraid to publicly admit that I'm wrong, because I am only human. I was wrong when I said that all hunting bullets are poured, and I don't know why I had a brain fart and said that because I know that 95 percent of bullets have inserted cores and I know for a fact that Speer's Hot-Cor bullets are poured because I witnessed it 19 years ago. There is nothing more than I can say on the subject Eddie. Thanks for the good shooting comment, trouble is I never shoot good and if I do it's just pure luck.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  13. brians356

    brians356 Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,525
    How are cores "bonded" if they're not poured molten?

    I grew up in Lewiston, went to school with Speer boys, and know folks who still work at Speer. It amuses me no end that someone could be dead certain they don't really pour Hot-Cor cores. But, it takes all kinds to make a world.
    -
     
  14. JRS

    JRS Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2008
    Messages:
    4,742
    Electro and/or electro chemical bonding.
     
  15. RGRobinett

    RGRobinett

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    264
    At risk of hijacking yet another thread . . .

    A few years back, I made some excellent "bonded-core", 30 caliber, match (BR) quality bullets (the methodology is, "for me to know, and you to find out"), which, at both point-blank, and long range (out to 1100 Yd.) shot into the same groups (extremely small) as my (BIB) match bullets, and, on moose-sized animals, retained about 70% of their original weight. :)

    At ranges between 35 and 1100+ yards, numerous large animals were dispatched, with consistent performance. Non-bonded match bullets, inside 300 Yd., expanded too violently for anything larger than elk, but at extended ranges (600 yards +), are very reliable terminators of even moose-sized game. Literally, several hundred deer have been harvested using my plane-Jane non-bonded match bullets, of several claibers, with nary a failure, and most excellent terminal performance - usually, DRT. The myth that "match" bullets don't work on game, up to the size of elk, is just that - a myth.:eek:

    The testers, Native Americans, exterminating invasive species from their tribal lands, using precision rifles, were unhappy that the bonded-core BR quality bullets, inside about 300 Yd., did not exit, but were consistently recovered between the hide and off-side flesh. They wanted/expected complete penetration, which, via monolithic (solid copper) bullets, they did obtain. Oh, the bonded-core BR quality bullets produced larger wound channels, and, of course, quicker kills than did the monolithic bullets. One of the testers being a veterinarian, to obtain comparative data, performed extensive autopsies on all animals.:)

    Those bullets (bonded-core BR) were very labor intensive - few people will pay for even a plane-Jane custom match bullet, let alone a much more pricey version - therefore, I abandoned the project. The original goal was to produce a bonded-core, BR quality bullet, delivering precisely the same POI and BC of my hand swaged match counterpart, accommodating load development and trajectory maping with the "less expensive" version, and hunting with the pricier sibling. The concept was intended to allow people who were purchasing "high end" custom rifles to experience ALL of the potential precision their rig had to offer. ;) RG
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    msinc, damoncali, swd and 1 other person like this.
  16. pdog2225

    pdog2225

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2008
    Messages:
    53
    There is one other option that I do not see here, liquid flux.
    I use the Corbin Press and dies to make some of my bullets with. I bought from Corbin a pint bottle of their liquid flux for making bonded bullets. You put a drop of this flux into the bottom of the empty jacket then put the core in. Then the batch ( I do 100 at a time) is put in an oven or other heat source and heated up until the lead melts. Remove from the heat and let them cool. Then expand the core in the jacket like normal and run them through the point up die. They are definitely (soldered) bonded. pdog2225
     
  17. SheepDog

    SheepDog Silver $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2016
    Messages:
    764
    The melting point of lead is 625.5F. I hope you are using a commercial parts oven for that high a temperature. The thermostat on my oven stops at 550F. If I could heat the oven hotter I don't think the inside finish would like it much.
     
  18. msinc

    msinc

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    877
    I don't work there and I don't know for sure, but it was my apparent {mis}understanding that the Hot-Cor bullet was heated to make the core stick to the jacket.....but maybe that is not so. It does seem like the idea that some idiot actually sits there and pours molten lead into each bullet jacket is slightly on the impractical side, I mean, you couldn't even get half starved Laotian refugees to do that!!! but......on page 18 of the Speer #14 manual they say it like this:

    "Speer attacked this problem and came up with the idea of pouring a molten core into a jacket. Because the core wasn't formed in a separate operation, no lubricant was needed. By pouring the core, no air was trapped between the core and jacket that could cause oxidation. By eliminating the lubricants and oxides, a more secure core-jacket grip was created. Thus the Hot-Cor bullets were born."

    What they say and what they do could be two different things, but that would be false advertisement...{like that cannot happen in America!!!!}
    All that said, I have killed various animalia with Hot-Cor bullets. I have found them to be very accurate. I have also found more than one that separated completely, so whether they use refugees of some sort to actually pour each one or not, it don't always work and bond like it is supposed to. That aside, I have to say in all fairness that both animals were big and tough and both of them hit the dirt immediately and did not move another twitch in spite of the jacket and core separation, so.................irregardless of how they are made, I'll take a Hot-Cor bullet anytime.
     
  19. brians356

    brians356 Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,525
    msinc,

    Their marketing only says "a more secure core-jacket grip", not that it is impossible for the jacket to separate from the core. Their claimed weight retention was never "100%", as I recall they consider 90% superior for a jacketed bullet, and proof of the concept (coupled with good accuracy.)

    And I doubt they would have felt lying about "pouring" would have gained them any marketing edge. If instead they were heating the lead already in place, they could have still called it "Hot-Cor" and just explained the alternative procedure. If they wanted to conceal their method they could simply have said "using our exclusive proprietary process", i.e. "It's a secret". Any viable process they developed would have to be automated to make as many bullets as they sell while controlling quality, I would suppose.
    -
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017 at 12:54 PM
    RGRobinett likes this.

Share This Page