Blueprinting custom actions...why?

Discussion in 'Main Message Board' started by Tommie, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. tomswede

    tomswede

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    Agree completely, have spent my whole career designing aircraft and gas turbine parts and that is my experience also.
     
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  2. mauser284

    mauser284

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    I would expect the expensive custom action to have been produced and quality controlled to a level that the average gunsmith could not hope to achieve! It is the difference between getting a part for your Chevy versus a part for a Nuclear Submarine. If my gunsmith found a problem with an expensive custom action I would expect the OEM to make it right not my gunsmith. If they did not I would tell everyone at every meet and in every forum for the rest of my life. If the expensive action needs work I could have saved a ton of money and bought a Savage or Remington and sent it out for blue printing. The 'smith is being paid to chamber, thread, crown and mate the precision barrel to the precision action. Should he find a problem with the action things should stop right their if it is a hi end brand new custom action.
     
  3. jimmymac

    jimmymac Gold $$ Contributor

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    To be clear, my original post is in regards to BR. The expectation for that application is quite unique with the desired end results being agg's in the 1's. That's a lot to expect out of our equipment.

    Just because an action is expensive doesn't mean it is capable of winning out of the box. We'd all like to think that the shiny new $1500 action is good to go and capable of shooting in the 1's from the get go, but the fact is some are and some aren't. Good BR gunsmiths can and do improve function of new actions as well as diagnose issues with "problem" actions that never quite cut the mustard for the intended application.

    Choose your gunsmith wisely. They are not all created equal.
     
  4. Rustystud

    Rustystud Site $$ Sponsor

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    I have trued and re-barreled my fair share of rifles. Custom action rifles all leave my shop shooting sub .5" moa at 100 yards or better. I can't recall ever truing a Borden, or Kelbly action. I personally know Jim Borden and Jim Kebley, and have never seen any of their actions needing to be trued. If I had I would have returned it to them. They don't let much get around their quality control. I read this thread and have read many threads by one particular poster here (no name). If you have a custom action and your smith says it needs to be trued get a second opinion or ask the manufacture to take a look at it. There is nothing worse than having a custom action that has been ruined by a reckless would be "Gunsmith".
     
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  5. jimmymac

    jimmymac Gold $$ Contributor

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    Thank you Alex.
     
  6. Alex Wheeler

    Alex Wheeler Gold $$ Contributor

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    I think I will leave this one alone. Its best people believe what they want.
     
  7. 284winner

    284winner Gold $$ Contributor

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    Trueing is a better term for sure. Always wondered in engine terms what blueprinting meant as it was misrepresented then as well. Balancing was the correct term but you always heard balance and blueprint. Trueing of an action and it's components has more meaning for me. I'm no gunsmith but for the sake of definition, it seems more correct. Tuning would include raceway, bolt, timing and firing pin modification to me. Again I'm sure there is more to it as I'm no expert on the subject.
     
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  8. 6MMsteve

    6MMsteve Gold $$ Contributor

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    shooting and golf same thing...good golfer can take 2 junk clubs no putter and beat the hacker guy with the latest greatest golf bag full of tech..I have done it and spot him 3 a side
     
  9. mauser284

    mauser284

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    True:

    "Choose your gunsmith wisely. They are not all created equal" Again if the expensive custom action needs it's manufacturing finished by the gunsmith then something is wrong. If that is true then you have wasted your money on the expensive action if it can not win out of the box. Unless you have more money than brains why would you pay 2X, 3X or 4X as much for a custom action then pay to have it "re-machined". If you were a student and this sort of logic is what you tried to make a case for you would get an "F" on that paper/proof from any technical school not a liberal arts program! Even a domestic car OEM would reject such logic and that is saying something! Are you likewise suggesting that we re-machine the interior of a finished match grade barrel? Should we likewise re-manufacture our bullets once they arrive at our home?

    Why do we purchase custom actions?

    What is a reasonable expectation upon the purchase of a custom rifle action or any machine or machine part for that matter?

    Who is responsible for the manufacture of a custom action the OEM or the Gunsmith?

    When you purchase an action from an OEM has a contract been entered into by both parties?

    What are the minimum requirements that all legally binding contracts must have to be enforceable?

    Sadly in this case logic and the law are on my side. I am not basing my "opinion" on beliefs rather on hard concrete facts and the law. Anyone doing anything else is the opposite of prudent and reasonable. To let an OEM off the hook like that is shameful, irresponsible and a disservice to all of their fellow humans and like hobbyist! It creates a culture were kicking the part out the door is all that matter's with no accountability like 1950's through 2000 Detroit Domestic Automotive Manufactures! If what you are saying is the norm for this industry I am glad I have never put down the money for a custom action. So if you buy a finished rifle from a company that builds custom rifle actions does that mean your smith needs to take the entire rifle apart and re-machine everything?
     
  10. jimmymac

    jimmymac Gold $$ Contributor

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    I’m not going to get in a pissing contest with you. Believe what you want and spend your money how you choose. I’ll do the same.
     
  11. billlarson

    billlarson "Hold Into The Wind" Gold $$ Contributor

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    In 1999 I bought my first custom action... I was still working at the time and had access to a complete state of art inspection dept.for a 75,000,000.00$ per year mfg.co....having had 38 years experience in the machine & R&D end of the co.I turned my action over to my shooting buddy...he spent a few hours with some very exspensive measuring equip.All in all the action was straight and square within. 0005" T.I.R ...
    Bill...
     
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  12. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE- Thread Derail Crew Gold $$ Contributor

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    Thats because it was machined in the same setup. Pretty typical
     
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  13. geo.ulrich

    geo.ulrich beware of owner Gold $$ Contributor

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    Alex, the funny thing is try and get one to say what the tolerances are they are working too ..theres a big jump $$$$$ from .001 to .0001
     
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  14. DukeDuke

    DukeDuke

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    If the custom action is for the buddies to see it and be in awe at the range, I wouldn't worry, if it is for competing against others, I'd have it checked to be certain.
     
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  15. Lucky Shooter

    Lucky Shooter Gold $$ Contributor

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    It kinda makes me wonder when I hear "tenths" tossed around----as Mike has referred to.

    Most barrels I fit and chamber in the uncontrolled environment of my garage shoot fairly well.
    I have a couple of good .0001" indicators but my limited skills on my Grizzly won't consistently
    produce readings down at the .0001 to .0002" level.

    I measured the thickness of a sheet of paper at .0039". Arithmetic tells me that it would take
    39 sheets @ .0001" thickness to measure .0039".

    I have to get real and settle for less accuracy-----for me, not much difference between a tenth and dead nuts.

    Can only dream about either.

    A. Weldy
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
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  16. antelopedundee

    antelopedundee

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    I was under the impression that blueprinting was converting something to the nominal spec on a blueprint. So a diameter that's specified as 1.444 +/- 0.003 inches would be turned to 1.444 inches. How can you print something that's under nominal since that would require one to add metal?
     
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  17. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE- Thread Derail Crew Gold $$ Contributor

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    Exactly
     
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  18. geo.ulrich

    geo.ulrich beware of owner Gold $$ Contributor

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    Or how can you blueprint something that no one is willing to divulge what tolerances their parts are being manufactured to....name one "custom action " which are really limited production actions not truly custom that gives tolerances they work to. there are none ZERO , that says we guarantee our actions are all straight and perpendicular to .xxxx t.i.r. Which leaves people like Alex , Dwight Scott and others to find and fix the deficiencies that occurred during the mfgering process..
     
  19. riflewoman

    riflewoman Gold $$ Contributor

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    Ummm...I think “blueprinting” was a term from hot rodding that meant seating bearings and such using “Prussian blue” to get perfect contact. That and balancing everything is supposed to make the engine run with less vibration etc.

    Trueing an action requires measuring geometrical relationships, (co-axiality, squareness, cylindricity, perhaps others) and you really don’t care what the exact dimensions are. So it isn’t “blueprinting” in any sense.
     
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  20. riflewoman

    riflewoman Gold $$ Contributor

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    Whether you call them ‘custom” or “limited production” they’re just made with better care. The big factories machine the entire action using relatively coarse cutting methods (larger feeds and depths of cut perhaps) Then they go to heat treat in large batches. Seldom are they stress relieved. So they warp.
     
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