ATF Question

Discussion in 'Main Message Board' started by rwj, Apr 12, 2019.

  1. rwj

    rwj Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2017
    Messages:
    441
  2. pirate ammo

    pirate ammo Guaranteed to take the wind out of their sails Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    2,302
    If you give free it's one thing, getting anything in return could be considered a profit.
     
  3. Kurz

    Kurz

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Messages:
    856
    This is as clear as can be worded by any government agency. Many shooters/reloaders will help out a friend, neighbor or relative by assisting with reloading chores. The only time it becomes a problem is when you charge for it or operate on a commercial basis. These require a license. Now, if whomever the reloader is helping offers to offset the cost of the reloads by paying for components, that is between the parties involved.
     
    Bc'z likes this.
  4. biggen0_8

    biggen0_8 Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    111
    Whenever I "load" for a friend, I require them to seat at least one bullet. I never charge anything, but only one person has ever "forgotten" to offer to reimburse me. I only helped him once.
     
  5. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE- Thread Derail Crew Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2014
    Messages:
    11,608
    Its always been this way as far as i know
     
  6. 243winxb

    243winxb

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,487
    The above covers the question.

    But a kaboom, from the free ammo , may induce a lawsuit. Are you fully insured?
     
    msinc likes this.
  7. rwj

    rwj Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2017
    Messages:
    441
    Opinions vary:rolleyes:, but I consider myself to be a nice person... but I don’t provide hand loads to others for the reason you cited combined with the nature of our currently litigious society.

    I agree with @Kurz that the ATF wording is about as clear as any government policy statement will be... but “personal” to me does not include others... hope some “legal eagles” chime in here too!
     
    243winxb and Ggmac like this.
  8. Nick Caprinolo

    Nick Caprinolo Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    Messages:
    349
    The only time I share reloads is when I take a family member to the range with me. If someone wants to know my powder charge, I give them a range of loads to use unless I know they are a very experienced reloader. In todays litigious society, where most lawyers advertise on TV, civil torts are rampant for even the smallest mistakes.
     
    joshb and topclass2017 like this.
  9. 243winxb

    243winxb

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,487
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/personal

    Personal -B: Carried on between individuals directly.

    USE- to expend or consume by putting to use.

    As long as no money is exchanged or bartering occurs , no ATF manufacturing license is needed. Give the free reloads to anyone old enough under state & federal laws.

    I'm going with this. Imo. :)

    Ask the ATF directly. Get it in writing .
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
    rwj likes this.
  10. Milo 2.0

    Milo 2.0

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    2,450
    You have since expanded on this, but to me is still vague as to why you are asking. There must be a situation you are referring to.
    I had a Dasher built for my Godson last yr, and had one built for his younger brother this past month. I do the loading also, at my cost, it is all on me. Even though they may store the guns, and maybe have ammo on hand, they really have no way to alter it w/o me knowing or seeing it, no reloading equipment.
    I also am in charge of cleaning their rifles, so a simple look down the barrel for an obstruction before we shoot is about all I have to do.
    I doubt I am outside the law in any form in what I'm doing here.
     
    joshb, msinc and 243winxb like this.
  11. rwj

    rwj Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2017
    Messages:
    441
    No direct experiences/situations to report. Risk assessment is something I often do and reading that other forum members are providing ammunition to others (no doubt a noble/kind act) led me to investigate what risks may be involved.

    I like the definition of “personal” cited by 243winxb! I didn’t think to look up the word’s meaning in a dictionary!
     
  12. antelopedundee

    antelopedundee

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    208
    Is one allowed to resell[and ship] factory ammo without an FFL? I think with firearms there is a point where one could be considered as "being in the business" but how about ammo?
     
  13. BartsBullets

    BartsBullets Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,150
    Guys I’ve been inspected by the ATF. What they are looking for are people who reload/manufacture loaded ammunition for sell. It threw the ATF agent for a loop that I only produced bullets, no finished ammunition!

    What they are really after is

    Checking you have a Federal Firearms license

    Checking to see if you’re Registered with the State department. (2250.00 per year)

    Last but not least trying to collect or insure you pay excise tax on your finished product.

    Bart
     
    damoncali likes this.
  14. Milo 2.0

    Milo 2.0

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    2,450
    Ok thanks.
    There is always a possibility of a mishap, but most of us here claim to be experts, lol, and should trust our skills.
    I do a lot for others, and give my share of stuff away. That said, I have loaded for individuals shooting a local competition, 3 times, rifles are hot from the start of a coarse till the end. In all 3 cases, I was involved in load dev just for the task, so felt ok doing so, these are close friends. < I know.

    No matter how nice a guy is, I can't see loading for capable people with no profits lasting too long. I guess the degree or amount of it would play. Loading 40 rds of hunting ammo that will last 4-5 yrs different than loading monthly. I guess what I am saying, I'll help out, but if it becomes a job, I'll need something, at that point it would have to end, I do not need a class 6 lic.
     
  15. LarryDScott

    LarryDScott Site $$ Sponsor

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,196
    Its not about safety. When the government is involved, its all
    about the MONEY. LDS
     
    simo hayha, msinc, 'Freak and 4 others like this.
  16. jonbearman

    jonbearman I live in new york state,how unfortunate ! Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    8,349
    This is the truth: You can call the ATF six times and get 6 different answers.
     
    Judd and Daddymac like this.
  17. Daddymac

    Daddymac Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2019
    Messages:
    54
    You can turn that into anything you want, as with most government regulations it's as clear as mud. I will only reload for my bestest friend, two calibers, one box about every two to three seasons, I have access to the rifles and have test fired the ammo myself. I will never charge him anything, because I get too much mileage out of doing it for him, I will intentionally make him sweat if he runs low during the season, if that's illegal, lock me up.
     
    DJO likes this.
  18. divingin

    divingin Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    285
    It's confusing because it's legalese. Easiest way to interpret is to take every word at face value.

    Assuming the statement linked by RWJ is what we're talking about, it's pretty cut-and-dried: You can give it away, but not sell it for a profit. If you want to cut a finer line, you can even charge to recover your actual component costs, as that would not constitute "profit or livelihood". This is how that particular phrase reads. How it would be applied or enforced may be different, and would probably require a court hearing to determine intent.

    The insurance issue, should something untowards happen, is a different matter entirely.
     
  19. TheOtherZilla

    TheOtherZilla

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,225
    I don't load for others and I don't provide specific load data on the interweb.
     
  20. rkittine

    rkittine Gold $$ Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,160
    In the early 70s, armed with Dealer and Manufacturer's FFLs, I produced and sold Reloaded ammunition, mostly through a local gun range in Haverstraw, New York. Never had a mishap. Paid the excise tax where necessary (sold to police departments in Rockland County, New York also). Then my attorney sat me down and explained that regardless of the releases I had customers sign, my you know what, was hanging out and that was 40 years ago, when there were less civil suits. I stopped and today I, like some, will not give out my loading data or provide reloads to anyone that did not load with me. I am happy to let people use my equipment and supplies only. We had a gun blow up at my home range last year. Fortunately only the gun blew up and no one was hurt. The shooter was using reloads from another club member. I am too old for that aggravation.

    Bob
     

Share This Page