Ar 10 accuracy - What can I expect?

Discussion in 'Big Stuff -- 6.5mm, 7mm, 30 Cal' started by oldhoward, Jul 23, 2014.

  1. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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    No. The trigger on a bolt gun is connected directly to the action unlike the trigger setup in an AR-15. In the AR, everything that you hold with the shooting hand is separate from the barrel, the chamber and the sights.
     
  2. Johnnie D

    Johnnie D

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    This is a group I shot from a Les Baer Sniper Model. I am using Berger 175 Grn OTM with Varget powder. I have used Lapua brass as well as LC brass....makes no difference to my rifle. There are many who say that a "gas gun" will not shoot with the bolt guns. I say BS! Now, will a gas gun be competitive with a BR gun? I hope the hell not, or we are wasting tons of money for those custom rigs. A gasser will "compete" with the bolt guns in any LR match or some of the "varmint" matches. The JP rifles and the Larues and to some extent DPMS (no offense) WILL DEFINITELY give the handle rifles a run for the money. The only thing a gasser gives up, if anything, is caliber. I am not convinced that a .308 is a good cartridge to compete out to exteded ranges beond 1000yds. Can you make hits? Hell yes! Can you do it consistently and keep the 6.5 Creedmore boys at bay....not so sure.
     

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  3. searcher

    searcher Gold $$ Contributor

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    BAYOU SHOOTER; I believe Kmart is referring to the effect of how it can create random fliers and lack of uniform grouping. We do know the difference between the rifles, thank you.
     
  4. scclimber

    scclimber

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    Sorry to bring up an old thread but I must have been really lucky through the years. I switched uppers and lowers never paying any attention to fit. The rifles would shoot 1/2 moa at 600 with pretty standard loads and no load development. This is shooting prone with irons in national match competition. Not sure what the rifles were capable of off a rest. Btw this was with ar15 woa uppers.
     
  5. retired

    retired

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    not even the same side of the world.
    ar15 match loads have been developed for years, so yes you can take a quality MATCH UPPER and shoot 1 moa with out much trouble. your claim of 1/2 moa means you shot 200/20x...which in real life is few and far between, so i do not buy it.
    maybe you could post some match results of your 200/20x's, say 10 or 12 of them ?
    my factory armalite ar10t shoots 1/2 moa with 175's when loaded to the lands and single loaded.
    its small groups is a 0.338
    hornady 130's shoot very well at mag length do to the nose design.


     
  6. 284winner

    284winner Gold $$ Contributor

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    You don't mention what cartridge. Based on twist and bullet weight sounds like a 30 cal and most likely a 308. There are alot of guys using the 300 WSM in that platform so that's why I'm asking. The AR10 is a tack driver or really should be. My 308 and 260 both are .5 shooters out to 600 yards. You should easily expect less than moa accuracy with most loads. I haven't taken them off my range to go out farther as my shots won't exceed 500-600 yards in most cases. They are about as accurate as most bolt guns can be out of the box. Incredible guns for gas guns. I'm not a huge fan of them for a hunting rig (exception is coyotes) except for running shots. Many follow up shots left in the mags give high percentage kills on fast moving coyotes. Just not a fan of carrying them guns all that far as mine are bull barrel set ups with high cap mags. Unless I use a dual strap carry system, the mags or pistol grip really makes carry a literal pain in my back.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  7. Bart B.

    Bart B.

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    That's about what the M852 7.62 NATO match load is. Lake City arsenal accuracy spec was 3.5 inch mean radius at 600 yards. Test groups extreme spread were around a foot. 12 inches. M14NM rifles rebuilt to perfection shot that load an inch or more worse in tests.

    Federal Gold Medal Match with IMR4064 shot that bullet into 5 or 6 inches at 600 in proper tests.

    Some lots of M118 match ammo with IMR4895 rebulleted with Sierra 168 or 180 HPMK's would test 5 inches at 600 in M14NM rifles.

    The US Army used AR10's in the 2012 Nationals winning and setting records at 1000 yards. They shot Berger 185 VLD bullets that tested sub moa at 1000. Darned good for semiauto's. That's as good as the best M14NM, M1A and 7.62 Garands did.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  8. Bart B.

    Bart B.

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    He may claim he tested the rifle and ammo and shot 1/2 MOA. That's happened for decades.

    Shooting that stuff in a match without artificial support will produce groups 2 to 3 times bigger when you're lucky. 200-14X don't happen often.
     
  9. urbanrifleman

    urbanrifleman Gold $$ Contributor

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    My bone stock DPMS Gen 2 will shoot honest to goodness 1/4" groups with Creedmore 175 ammo. Seriously. Not all the time, but it is shocking how often on a pretty day with good conditions.

    My Bartlein 5r 1-8 243 upper will shoot the same with hand loads. You would think it would be way better, but that stock 308 barrel from DPMS is a SCREAMER!!!
     
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  10. retired

    retired

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    at least you know why he is on my ignore list
     
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  11. urbanrifleman

    urbanrifleman Gold $$ Contributor

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    200 yard group. Bartlein 5r 243. 108 Berger moly, R16, Lapua brass

    20171209_112403.jpg 20171209_110624.jpg 20171209_114652.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  12. urbanrifleman

    urbanrifleman Gold $$ Contributor

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    David Tubb won two? Nationals shooting a SR-25...
     
  13. Leo Smith

    Leo Smith Gold $$ Contributor

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    Just read an article on these guys.Rebel Yell Arms 6.5 Creedmoor AR-10.
     
  14. retired

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    sub moa is not impossible,
    but
    1/2 moa is not easy
    and
    1/4 moa is few and far between in anything less than a full blown bench rifle.

     
  15. urbanrifleman

    urbanrifleman Gold $$ Contributor

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    https://craddockprecision.com/gen2-barrels/

    Paul from Craddock Precision made my Bartlein G2 barrel. We are currently testing the first run of Remage barrels. Will be doing Bartlein, Rock Creek, and Criterion blanks. Craddock stuff is like metal art...
     
  16. urbanrifleman

    urbanrifleman Gold $$ Contributor

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    David Tubb won the 1997 Nationals at minimum with his SR-25 before developing his bolt gun version on the same frame. I think they are like anything else, depends on who made the barrel and the parts. The DPMS Gen 2 is a whole better design from the original AR10s.
     
  17. 6ShotsOr5?

    6ShotsOr5? Gold $$ Contributor

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    I agree with Searcher. You can get down to near .5 MOA with a lot of effort, but don’t count on it, and very unlikely “out of the box”.

    There was a good article on the precision Rifle Blog about accuracy from some high end 6,5 CM AR10s and a bolt gun in 6.5CM: http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/07/22/6-5-creedmoor-ar-showdown/

    My experience is more limited than Searcher. I got good accuracy from one rifle with a lot of effort, but not very good results with another rifle. These are both weapons I assembled rather than purchased as a complete rifle - building them is way too much fun to let someone else do it.

    I have a “medium-high-end” AR10 in 6.5CM. This rifle has a 22” Rainier Ultra Match barrel, JP high pressure bolt, cheap DPMS bolt carrier, Geissele SSA-E trigger, Magpul PRS Stock, and a Leupold VX-6 4-24x52 (34 mm) scope. The most consistent factory ammo I found could barely beat 20 fps SD, so I got some custom loads to test. The custom load shot well around 0.6-1.0 true MOA (corrected for shot count) during load development with Berger 140 Target Hybrid bullets in Hornady brass. I didn’t buy enough ammo so I don’t have the load recipe, but here are the true MOAs from 5 consecutive 5 shot groups at 201.2 yds with different powder loads and COAL 2.80”, shot off the bench with a Harris bipod with a rear bag:

    0.887 starting load
    0.998
    0.644
    0.646
    0.582 max load

    Then I started measuring MVs and these were more inconsistent than the factory ammo, so I stopped buying the load. I’m gonna start reloading soon, hoping to have reasonably good precision and more consistent MVs. As of today, I was able to buy the 140 Berger Target Hybrid bullets - some of you will know these have been hard to find for a while. If I can get a load I’m happy with, I may use this in some PRS matches, but so far it’s not as good as my bolt gun with factory ammo. I need all the help I can get.

    I also have a medium-end AR10 in .308Win that I’ve only been able to shoot less than 1MOA only twice after shooting many groups. I found several factory loads with very consistent velocities, but I also shot about 25-30 5-shot groups with these factory loads and almost all of them were somewhere between 1.05 and 1.25 MOA. I would like to shoot this rifle at 1 MOA & smaller targets at 400-800 yds, but the hit probabilities are pretty low with that sort of precision. This rifle has an 18” Rainier Ultra Match barrel, Geissele SSA-E trigger, Magpul UBR gen 1 Stock, Leupold VX6 3-18x50 (30 mm) Scope, and I don’t remember what bolt or bolt carrier — it’s been a few years since I shot this rifle. I had some issues with the bolt and carrier and it took significant effort just to get the rifle running well, and I never managed to get it to shoot well, at least not yet.
     
  18. Bart B.

    Bart B.

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    What is "true MOA?"

    What's your process that corrects for shot count?

    I've never heard of this. Enlighten me, please. Thanks.
     
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  19. 6ShotsOr5?

    6ShotsOr5? Gold $$ Contributor

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  20. retired

    retired

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    lol
    you did not fire enough to worry about statistics and probability.
    just measure and average if you shot 5 or more 5 shot groups.

     

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