Discussion in 'Gun Project Questions & Gunsmithing' started by gsg5pk, May 12, 2016.
No anti seize for me.
Aint that the truth LOL
I like this stuff
OK! You guys put me to work doing a little research .I didn't find the consistent answers I wanted to hear on the internet so I called the boy's at Bat Machine,Since I shoot their action.Upon my beer memory they used anti-seize in the past but now recommend a synthetic grease for all uses on threads and bolt's.NOW as much as I relish my hard headed belligerence,I can recognize when that wonderful property is counter productive.That's the apology you guy's are gonna get!
The G-n Moly is good stuff. I haven't used it on barrels but use it in equipment at work. The equipment is fans at a power plant that run at 400 degrees in flue gas 250+ days a year. We haven't had any issues with disassembly when using the moly. The OEM said the copper based antisieze was not as effective and they have had disassembly issues on units where it has been used.
Contributors to this thread have added to my knowledge base & for that I thank you all.
As for what product I'll use on my barrel-to-action threads going forward?
That 4 oz. of Permatex was new last year so it's first up.
Important point though is threads should not be fitted dry. It seems grease - as long as it's properly formulated for the purpose - won't cause any harm.
My son the Mechanical Engineer, had a lab in school, where they repeatedly torqued a stainless steel bolt assembly to measure resistance, with an eye toward galling. The paste (expensive) Krytox from Dupont far exceeding all the other lubricants.
You mean like this
Yea James, that's pretty much the case!
A good synthetic wheel bearing grease works. Larry
Unlike almost any other threaded connection, in the case of the barrel tenon/action joint, there is also the issue of motion of one relative to the other that can happen as a result of firing. If one consults Harold Vaughn's research, published in Rifle Accuracy Facts, it can be seen that some materials that prevent galling can be unsuitable for this application. There is a whole chapter in his book devoted to the barrel action joint. I suggest that reading it a couple of times might be beneficial. Good luck finding a copy. I find that my paperback edition has appreciated considerably since I bought it.
I used to work with lots of 300 series stainlesses and the greases designed for oxygen service, as Krytox is, were head and shoulders above everything else in preventing galling. Copper never seize was the worst performer. Nickel Never Seize was only marginally better. However, nickel never seize worked great on the 400 series bolts. Which our actions and barrels are.
All my life I have work in automotive When you have tighting specifications it is done for a reason. I would think barrel should be the same. And lube is nessary . Larry
Yes, but the reasons can be different, and the nature of the joint, the stresses placed upon it, and the performance parameters can dictate different materials. That was my point. Have you read the chapter that I referred to?
I still have my autographed book. I use synthetic wheel bearing grease. Is it the best, I don't know but I've never seized or galled a thread.
Can you post the chapter you been referring to ?
Some of us got into shooting way after the book came out .
I few years ago I had a tool that I was having galling problems with. It was some gummy stainless. It would gall almost instantly. It was a good test for grease, so I tried everything I had on hand. The only thing that prevented galling 100% was called extreme fluoro from finishline. So thats what I now use on threads.
Have you gotten around to rereading that chapter yet? Based on my reading, I want that least slick lubricant that will prevent galling with the metals that I am using. For my Viper, and 416 stainless barrels I currently use a Permatex product called Versachem anti-seize. It is a semi-synthetic grease with copper flakes and some corrosion inhibitor. In the past I have used Pro Shot Gold, and some Permatex anti-antiseize that is gray colored. I have not seen any difference between them as far as accuracy is concerned.
Boyd, I did re-read that chapter. I really dont know how relevant it is. He was torquing the barrel to extreme levels, and still seeing movement. A lube with a low coefficient of friction allows more stretch of the fastener (clamping force) for a given torque. He didnt really test any thing like that. I agree with his point though. I do try to stabilize the joint by cutting a slight taper in my tenons like we talked about. This is an area we need to do more testing on for certain. The other issue at hand is when dealing with a gally (new term?) action like a Bat I am too scared to use something like 10w-30 in fear that the action and barrel may decide to become one.
I had some problems with his reasoning in the beginning of that chapter. He attributed most of what stabilizes the joint as "axial preload" and relegates "lateral friction force" to a secondary role. To me, it seems that the whole reason that a given amount of axial preload is needed is to create sufficient friction between the barrel shoulder and the face of the action to prevent their shifting from side to side relative to each other.
If I may digress, most structural iron in buildings is assembled with high strength bolts tightened to specific torque values, that unlike the rivets that preceded them, do not take the shear forces imparted to the joint. Those forces are carried by the friction between the faces of the parts that is a function of how tight the bolts are tightened. The axial load of the fasteners creates the friction between the parts that is sufficient to prevent movement.
To me the similarity is obvious. For that reason, I wipe barrels shoulders of anti-seize with my fingertip, leaving only a thin film of oil to lubricate between barrel shoulder and action face. I want just enough lubrication to prevent galling, and no more, because I believe, that it is the friction in this area that is a major component in joint stability.
At some point, I would like to do and experiment with a pair of washers that had interlocking, v grooves running around their faces, that were lubricated, and have dry flat surfaces where they touched the action and barrel. The grooves would slide when the washers were rotated one against the other, but be prevented from shifting laterally by their interlocking V grooves. I would leave the other sides of the washers as turned, or possibly glass beaded, and dry.
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