Annealing Brass

[Ackley Kid]

Looking for more input on this subject . I have just recently started into this with Bench Source vertex machine . I read manual , various info via internet and seems to be some conflict . I am using tempilaq 400F on case head ,body area , and 650F-700F on shoulder , case neck area . Nearly all cases flare orange upon existing flame and there is no indication of over heating . 4 seconds seems to do the trick indicates 700+ at neck shoulder , and 400 tempilaq mark is still visable for 1 1/8 inch above case head . 650F templiaq only idicates 1/4 inch below shoulder datum line on 284 cases . I read different opinions on quenching ?Pros , cons other than having to dry your brass ? Other articles indicated the oragne flare from flame prior to cycling is from over annealing ? Any help or hints from the pros would be greatly appreciated

 

[SShooterZ]

CatShooter has some great advice if he pops in.

We had a large discussion on it here too:
http://www.burntpowder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=171&p=1555#p1555

 

[Ackley Kid]

Thanks that was a good read ! Sorts out some of the myths . Excellent link

 

[arnie]

If your getting a bright orange color in a lit room ,your over heating those cases . I anneal mine in a totally dark room and the necks barely show any orange but annealing is good .

 

[kmon]

If your getting a bright orange color in a lit room ,your over heating those cases . I anneal mine in a totally dark room and the necks barely show any orange but annealing is good .

I agree, if you are heating to orange you are heating too much.

 

[Ackley Kid]

Flame around case goes orange not case itself , no colour change there . Blueing only extends about 3/8 past shoulder on annealed cases . In link above my cases are similar to 1 and 2 from the left . Just started at this so want to be sure I am not cooking them! Thanks for your posts ,your input is appreciated

 

[mao0720]

The bright orange flame is from the temilaq. I noticed that if I don't let the tempilaq dry for a good 5-10 minutes that it burns rather than liquefies, and the flame goes orange as soon as the case goes into the flame.

 

[Ackley Kid]

Makes perfect sense ! I have been experimenting with dud cases . I have not allowed to dry that long thats for sure . usually brush on and let dry to touch . Thank you for your post

 

[CatShooter]

If your getting a bright orange color in a lit room ,your over heating those cases . I anneal mine in a totally dark room and the necks barely show any orange but annealing is good .

I agree, if you are heating to orange you are heating too much.

Nonsense. Shame on both of you guys... the orange colour comes from any number of things, oil, ash, "stuff", but not the metals - both Copper and Zinc show green when over heated, and by the time you have over heated them enough to show their ionic colors, they are in a puddle that burned through your table... Way past read hot!

Forget Templaq - it is a waste of your time... you need to anneal in low light (not dark) to a dark red color, for 4 to 6 seconds (not critical), and let it air cool... it is really that easy.

There are guys that will rant and rave about how it has to within 12 degrees of some magic number (pick one 749, 962, 857, 1103), or you have ruined it - pure Bullskat. They heard it from their sister who dated a guy that worked at Walmart's sporting goods department.

What follows is a piece of a thread from a while back... I like annealing.


-------------------------------------------------------------

Annealing is a science - not hot enough - it doesn't do a thing. To hot and you destroy the case. Annealing is not for a beginner, the worst would be that you destroy your 2 dollars apiece Norma brass and blind yourself. The least is you waste your time and money. Everyone has an opinion but annealing can get to 20-30 re-loads and can increase your scoring based on tender case release or consistent neck tension. I shoot Lapua brass and I'm not wasting any money buying new brass when with care you can be like the Energizer Bunny and keep on going and going - or should I say loading and loading.

"Annealing is a science - not hot enough - it doesn't do a thing. To hot and you destroy the case. Annealing is not for a beginner, the worst would be that you destroy your 2 dollars apiece Norma brass and blind yourself."

Well, I guess everyone should quit annealing then, cuz none of us want to go blind... wait a minute - I remember something about going blind when I was 13, and it never happened.

So this must be BS!!

Annealing is part science and part black magic

I use a $2,500 instrument to test annealing, and annealing is not as critical as some would like you to believe, and is filled with black magic - .

Constant, uniform annealing can be done by hand...

But color can be deceiving - the cases on the right were annealed at the same time as the ones on the left, at the same temperature, for the same duration, but the ones on the left look like Lapua's annealing, the ones on the right have a silverish colour - the difference is that one group was made ~10 years earlier than the other - both are the same make.

The distance that colour travels on the case body can be deceiving... the case shown here would be thrown away by most everyone...

When it was annealed, a strange thing happened. It annealed in the flame normally, and and when dropped on the foil, it looked normal, and it lie there for a few seconds, then the dark "annealing colours" started running up the body to the head, like a fast burning fuse.

But when tested for hardness, the case head hardness had not been changed, and the case was fine to load.

You can see the indentations in the case head of both cases (low and on the right side of the case head - you might have to look hard).

Tested @ 0.0625x100Kg

 

[SShooterZ]

Told ya Cat would have good info.

 

[LHSmith]

Told ya Cat would have good info.

Here we go again. IMHO, his method over-anneals. This is also the opinion of Ken Light and the makers of the Bench Source annealing machine.
If you're annealing to gain ultimate accuracy, do what TOP competitors do, anneal necks until you just begin to see a faint orange glow in a dimly lit room, never red -even in a pitch black room.This is a generalization, and one SHOULD use tempilaq until the technique is learned and with each new batch of brass. Precise neck tension matters in precision shooting. Catshooters objectives are not in the same universe as those who are continually winning registered competition and garnering hard to come by shooter points.
If, on the otherhand, you are just looking to extend brass life and 1 MOA groups make you happy, catshooters method will be a good fit for you.
To the OP, follow the Bench Source instructions to the T, the color that the neck glows is what matters. Ignore all the other chaff you read on the internet. Once set up your machine will anneal with uncanny consistency.

 

[jrm850]

Catshooter, were you ever able to figure a way to test the thin neck meat with your sclerometer? would stacking samples give you the thickness you need without skewing the results? Do you have the ball or diamond indenter on yours?

 

[/VH]

If I remember correctly, I was told by Benchsource that when he does see a faint glow, he then backs the time off a couple 10ths of a second.

 

[KMart]

I shoot with a retired metallurgical engineer. His education was at Texas A&M and Texas Tech.
His statement to me on case annealing was that the only damage you can get from overheating brass is to cave in the necks. The brass is not harmed structurally.
That seems to closely mirror what some others say and I'll go with that.

 

[CatShooter]

Catshooter, were you ever able to figure a way to test the thin neck meat with your sclerometer? would stacking samples give you the thickness you need without skewing the results? Do you have the ball or diamond indenter on yours?

I have a diamond on a 2" tester used for bolts and receivers, and a ball on 1" tester for brass - I am set up for it, I just have not had the time... but it IS on my bench.

 

[CatShooter]

Told ya Cat would have good info.

Here we go again. IMHO, his method over-anneals. This is also the opinion of Ken Light and the makers of the Bench Source annealing machine.
If you're annealing to gain ultimate accuracy, do what TOP competitors do, anneal necks until you just see an orange glow in a dimly lit room, never red -even in a pitch black room.This is a generalization, and one SHOULD use tempilaq until the technique is learned and with each new batch of brass. Precise neck tension matters in precision shooting. Catshooters objectives are not in the same universe as those who are continually winning registered competition and garnering hard to come by shooter points.
If, on the otherhand, you are just looking to extend brass life and 1 MOA groups make you happy, catshooters method will be a good fit for you.
To the OP, follow the Bench Source instructions to the T, the color that the neck glows is what matters. Ignore all the other chaff you read on the internet. Once set up your machine will anneal with uncanny consistency.

LHSmith... did you actually read your post before you hit "POST" ? ??? It makes no sense.

So, "Here we go again"

"anneal necks until you just see an orange glow in a dimly lit room, never red -even in a pitch black room."

Your recommendation is completely WRONG, so it is obvious you do not anneal at all, and know nothing about annealing. You are a great source of information on this subject!!

Orange is 300 to 400 degrees HOTTER than dark red.

"Catshooters objectives are not in the same universe as those who are continually winning registered competition and garnering hard to come by shooter points."

You know less than nothing about my objectives.

Your post is just more "hot air" on annealing

 

[spencerhenry]

Told ya Cat would have good info.

Here we go again. IMHO, his method over-anneals. This is also the opinion of Ken Light and the makers of the Bench Source annealing machine.
If you're annealing to gain ultimate accuracy, do what TOP competitors do, anneal necks until you just see an orange glow in a dimly lit room, never red -even in a pitch black room.This is a generalization, and one SHOULD use tempilaq until the technique is learned and with each new batch of brass. Precise neck tension matters in precision shooting. Catshooters objectives are not in the same universe as those who are continually winning registered competition and garnering hard to come by shooter points.
If, on the otherhand, you are just looking to extend brass life and 1 MOA groups make you happy, catshooters method will be a good fit for you.
To the OP, follow the Bench Source instructions to the T, the color that the neck glows is what matters. Ignore all the other chaff you read on the internet. Once set up your machine will anneal with uncanny consistency.

so the guys that make some fancy and probably expensive tool to anneal are telling us that without their whiz bang machine you are ruining your brass? i am sure they are just trying to save every one the cost of new brass after it is "ruined".

i was scared away from annealing for many years because of b.s. like that. i was concerned that i would ruin all my brass, that it was really hard to do. that you needed all these special tools and if you didn't you were asking for trouble. and then i read what others had to say on the subject and realized that they were correct, the temperature does NOT need to be super precise, it does NOT require fancy expensive tools.

while my experience with annealing is far short of some on this forum, my results have been good. since i started annealing, i have never "lost" a case. i am sure that some of my early ones would have been called over annealed by many.

like i asked on another forum, can someone who proclaims that the hand held propane torch method is destroying your brass please provide scientific DATA? perhaps some hardness numbers on brass annealed at various temperatures? how about something, anything other than personal non-quantified beliefs.

on another forum it was proclaimed that when over heated that the zinc was burning out of the brass! really? basic physics must have been missed in school! maybe they can show me how to turn my lead into gold!

 

[Danattherock]

Bouncing boobies

 

[22DASHER]

I started annealing using Cats method, still use it, and it continues to produce super accurate reloads. It minimized my neck tension variances when seating bullets and tightened up my 600 yard groups. Not sure what else you need... It's annealing folks, not rocket science.

 

[snakepit]

you need to anneal in low light (not dark) to a dark red color, for 4 to 6 seconds (not critical), and let it air cool... it is really that easy.

Is the 4 to 6 seconds for a dual torch or a single torch operation? If it is for a dual torch how much time do you recommend for a single torch?