Anatomy of a no shooting barrel

Discussion in 'Main Message Board' started by rockable, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. rockable

    rockable Gold $$ Contributor

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    I have a Savage 12FV that I just never could get a load worked up for. Every time I would start to shoot, I'd get some pretty good shots but 15-20 shots in, it would start to scatter them like a shotgun. After buying a Lyman borescope, I determined it was copper fouling pretty badly. So, I gave it the Sweets treatment and cleaned it up........but it would foul again in no time. Finally, I just gave up and bought a new Shilen barrel which looks promising.

    Today, I was bored, so I decided to section part of this barrel and see what it looked like, since I could not bring myself to palm it off on someone else. I started out on the chamber end and after removing 6", I didn't see anything alarming. However, once I started to section the muzzle end, I saw severe copper fouling. Now I was really curious, so I cut the whole dang thing in half. Attached are pictures of what I found.

    About 4-6" out, it would start to foul and then fouled severely as it progressed down the barrel. This barrel probably only had 25-30 shots fired down it since it was completely cleaned with Sweets. I took pictures of the muzzle end before and after cleaning with Sweets after sectioning. You can see the heavy fouling and, with the copper removed, you can see that the bore looks like the top of a Lyman M5 Scale Beam. Rough. No wonder it copper fouled, so badly!

    Also, I took a picture of the chamber end where you can see slight erosion and also the starting of the carbon ring. This was educational for me and I hope it will be with you. If you've got a barrel that copper fouls, you may as well give it up. Unless you develop some serious lapping skills, it will always foul.

    One other thing that surprised me was how quickly Sweets took the copper out. 15 minutes and 2 applications had it dissolved. That stuff is powerful!.....in more ways than one. Sniff! Sniff!

    20180212_161305.jpg 20180212_161355.jpg 20180212_164856.jpg 20180212_163903.jpg 20180212_165034.jpg
     
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  2. Prose

    Prose

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  3. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE Gold $$ Contributor

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    Thats bad but a barrel that copper fouls isnt necessarily a bad barrel. Ive seen some that you gotta sweets and jb every group and if you have to shoot 10rds you may not even hit the target but they will win matches. Of course they dont look like that inside though- that barrel shoulda been sent back to savage. Too bad you didnt scope it first but i appreciate seeing it. How did you section it so nicely anyway?
     
  4. Macropod

    Macropod

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    Very poorly made. I'll bet the Shilen you replaced it with is orders of magnitude better.
     
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  5. rardoin

    rardoin Silver $$ Contributor

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    A new take on 'ratchet rifling':eek:.
     
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  6. rockable

    rockable Gold $$ Contributor

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    Bandsaw.
     
  7. rockable

    rockable Gold $$ Contributor

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    I can tell with my horoscope that it is, indeed.
     
  8. STS

    STS Silver $$ Contributor

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    Savage lapped that one with a file.
     
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  9. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE Gold $$ Contributor

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    Have they ever advertised match grade, hand lapped or even inspected barrels? Ive seen all brands way worse than that. Even seen an ar barrel recently by a company everybody was touting about a week ago that had zero rifling for 8-10” like it was ripped out.
     
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  10. STS

    STS Silver $$ Contributor

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    I doubt that they have said/advertized that they lap or any other quality improvement measures. I was completely tongue in cheek with my post. I probably should have added a :D.
     
  11. rockable

    rockable Gold $$ Contributor

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    It would shoot 10 shots ok. If you'e a hunter who does a good job of cleaning, that would be acceptable. It just didn' work for me. Didn't mean to imply anything otherwise.
     
  12. mikecr

    mikecr

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    Tubb's firelapping (FinalFinish) could have extended the copper fouling out rate considerably. Too bad you cut it up.
     
  13. Downhill

    Downhill

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    Had a Savage Varmint/Target in 22-250 that would do the same thing. First two groups would be great. Third group would open up. A fourth 5 round group would approach 3 moa. After that- forget about it. Used JB's repeatedly to remove the problem area which was mid barrel to muzzle. Finally gave up and installed a prefit. Shoots great now. I think my barrel must have been done on a Monday with a hangover.
     
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  14. efmoto

    efmoto

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    My model 12 (223 rem) looks the same. Never could get the velocities (and groups) to settle down because of the severe copper fowling. After 30-40 rounds the velocities (hence pressure) were way too high.
    Also had a defect in the last 3/8" of the barrel that changed the poi 12-16" horizontally when switching ammo. That went away when I cut 1/2" off and re-crowned but the severe copper fowling never did.

    Dropped a bartlein in and there is no copper after the first 20 rounds. Groups went from ~1moa for best group on the stock barrel to .5" worst groups for bartlein. Same nut behind the trigger...
     
  15. Hydenseek

    Hydenseek Silver $$ Contributor

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    You would think they factory would still warranty that barrel. Not like its worth any less now.
     
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  16. DCRYDER

    DCRYDER

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    That's one fine bandsaw job right there!!!! Every one I've used couldn't go 6 inches without going out the side. Lol
     
  17. JBT

    JBT Gold $$ Contributor

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    To me it appears there are variations in bore size the full length of the bore with it larger at the muzzle. Could be just appearance from being cut with band saw though.
     
  18. Bugs

    Bugs Gold $$ Contributor

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    I had a savage LRPV in .223 that had the exact same problem. To Savage's credit, they replaced the barrel at no charge and the replacement was marginally better than the original but still had the same kind of coppering problems. First and last Savage I ever owned.
     
  19. rockable

    rockable Gold $$ Contributor

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    It is the cut. I can' make a perfectly straight cut on a round object with my band saw.
     
  20. NWnewguy

    NWnewguy Silver $$ Contributor

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    I appreciate your curiosity and experimentation, as well as your willingness to share it with the community. I have a Savage LRPV that has similar, but much less severe chatter marks like that, which I assume comes from the hammer forging process. It shoots amazingly well (<1/2" consistently, not best ever!) though for a factory barrel. Copper fouling isn't bad according to my borescope. I would consider sending those pics and a brief description to Savage. They have some pretty good engineers at Savage now and it would never hurt them to have more information. I wouldn't swap barrels back to a Savage factory from your pre-fit though, even if they gave you one for free.
     

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